Happy Christmas everyone,

Quick question Graham, and all. I now have a Gary Fisher 29er (which is a mountain bike with 700c wheels essentially). Can I use this in the Polaris please. If you say yes, then this may prompt others to ask whether they can use cyclo cross bikes, but these varieties of steed may be good thing (along with tandems and unicycles)

Gary
Although we promote the Polaris as a MTB event, we actually do not specify what type of bike to use on the Polaris. The rules say "pedal cycle"
As you know in the past we have had uni-cycles, recumbents, tandems, singlespeeds and cyclo cross bikes.
The choice of bike is up to the individual and most chose MTB bikes for the gearing and robust construction.
To date on the Spring and Autumn events cyclo cross bikes have not been advantageous but they could be on summer events as would be 700c wheel bikes. We may have to review this in the future
How could we not let you use a Gary Fisher bike on an event sponsored by Trek.
The spring event will be titled
The Gary Fisher Poaris Challenge
Happy New Year

This is going to be interesting Gary. They are supposedly better on rough ground, but worse on technical terrain. If you are going to use it in the spring event I'd get a suspension seatpost.
And has it got discs?
Did the Salisbury Plain Challenge today, there were hand outs for the next 'Not the Schwinn'. New sponsor MBR.

having a little dig here J?

Actually, not at all Graham. It never crossed my mind, honest.
I was simply referring to the wonderment of a magazine putting real cash into an event, rather than just offloading out of date copies.
I would imagine MBR's involvement will go no further than free advertising; this year's handouts were black and white on grotty paper rather than Schwinn's rather tasteful and colourful glossies.
John Lloyd told me they were restricted in their choice of dates by the very few nonfiring days available up on the range. He won the grandvet cat at Salisbury, just 7 minutes behind Kevin [1st vet]who's also local. I came nowhere.

Returning to the new bike theme. There were a lot of full suspension bikes, mostly old Marins; but I only saw three multipivot bikes; and as I missed the start slightly and then had a puncture I saw a lot of bikes. It would seem that the keen riders don't buy them.

Jerry
I agree. No magazine will put real cash into an event, if you recall the first Polaris Summer event was sponsored by MBR, all they give you is free pages in their mag which you can try to sell to other sponsors or use it for an entry form
Still think you were having a pop, though.

What after all that christmas good cheer and you're slightly paranoid? Sounds like you have similar Christmas's to mine.

Graham - the first summer Polaris was actually sponsored by MTB Pro, not by MBR. Shame my lungs aint as good as my memory.

thanks Mick
My brain is getting addled after all of these events

Jerry, This 29er has v brakes and ceramic rims. In general it rides like most other MTB's so far, but I expect it to climb better. So far it's been good to ride, and it is brand new after all.

Graham, I'll be riding the 29er then. Cheers. Just another question. In the summer event, can you use a different bike on Day 2 to Day 1?

Why would it climb better Gary? The wheels have got to be heavier. Do the big wheels have more give and is the bike better at absorbing ground shock?
I'm interested in the concept, but I think I'll have to go full suss

It has a larger tyre footprint, therefore better traction, and the geometry is pretty good for climbing. Furthermore, it has a canny lockdown on the Marzocchi forks - you compress them then lock them out which gives a better lower position for climbing. I'm sure the wheels are heavier, but the rotating mass has neglible effect at climbing speeds. Give me a couple of months and I can tell you more.

It also has a shallower attack angle, due to the bigger wheels, which might make the tyres roll easier over lumps at low speeds.
Being skint I've been on the lookout for an old titanium dynatech Raleigh. They made a hybred with these wheels. Back then nobody was making decent tyres in this size

Gary
On the summer event you can ride as many bikes as you want

Hey Gary, did you write that or read it from the
manual!

Love Satan Cruz

Much has been made of mapping and standards, i.e. making the event fair and equitable, yet nothing is ever mentioned about the patent and inherent unfairness of sponsored riders competing against less fortunate, though not necessarily less gifted, riders.

Rob
Everyone has the opportunity of becoming sponsored but this only comes about if you have shown that you can perform at the top. Being sponsored does not mean that you are any better so I cannot see any inherent unfairness. It is no different than someone with enough disposable income to afford the best bike, lightest kit which gives an advantage over others.
A sponsored rider has to ride what he is given which may not be the best so could in the end be a disadvantage.

Hi Rob, for my part I get my Santa Cruz Super
Light (which I choose to ride because I
actually like it). I get some expenses and
workshop time, although I do my own
servicing if possible because its then set the
way I like it. I don't get preferencial treatment
from my technicians because they have
paying customers to see to first, as it should
be.

Its a fair deal considering the sports size, that
said our type of people buy a lot of nice bikes.

Sure it saves me money, but then again the
same people used to win before they got
sponsored bikes. I work full time, have a
morgage, etc.

I hope that helps put us sponsored riders in
context for you, we are the same as you but
our bikes are free.

best wishes with your training,

john houlihan

Dear John,
Good luck to anyone who can get a few freebees, just don't rub our faces in it!
Best wishes to your technicians.
rob.

Hi Rob,

I presume your in a jocking mood or have I
missed something.

As for my technicians, a bit of respect for
people who are good at their job goes a long
way.

john h

Rob
For my part I have never seen any "sponsored" riders rubbing anyone's nose in it.
In fact they are often the most helpful of riders and actively contribute to the improvement of the competition.
We should not begrudge the fact that they may get a free bike after many hard years work and improvement.

at the end of the day John/Gary must provide valuable feedback to their sponsors,which in turn means better quality bikes for us.
So thank you chaps.

Yeah, Thanks ever so for saving yourselves a couple of grand, pushing to the front of the queues, being allowed to go forward despite missing your start time slots and complaining incessantly about everything, every time I ever see you!!!


Light the blue touch paper....

Hi lovin it, I'm up early because I'm still jet
lagged from a 2 week training camp in
California courtesy of my sponsor Santa Cruz.

Hard life but I make the sacrificies needed.

yours bronzed, fit, 3 grand in my pocket (not
the cheapskate 2 grand you take me for) and
very happy.

john h

PS I passed your name on for potential
sponsorship, the word is Halfords might do a
deal.

Hi lovin it, I thought your last email was a little
unfair to us both, just to clarify to everybody
reading.

Gary is the one who was allowed through
when late.

John is the one who is always complaining.

we both wait in line for registration, water,
toilets etc

we both saved ourselves three grand and
always push to the front of the startline.

thanks John

John,
There is no need for immature comments like those.

Looks like the claws are being sharpened again!
As a pretty pathetic rider myself - only competed in one Polaris - Autumn, Snowdonia - but I consider myself a fairly experienced Marshal now.
Whether you're sponsored or not a little courtesy goes a long way and I've got to hand to the lads at the top, each time they have come through my checkpoints they have thanked us for sitting there waiting for people like themselves to come through. (to be honest most people do - but there are a few miserable sods who don't give a toss!)
So THANKS lads for thanking us - and best luck to all taking part this year!

Rob,

Just who do you think is making immature comments?

The thing that has always attracted me to the Polaris is the friendliness and lack of bitching.

You know the alternative...

Hi Kevin
Happy new year
As far as I am concerned as the guy with the beard at the start line there is no privelidges given to any rider on the start line or in the gridding up.
It makes little difference where you are on the start line anyway as the real event starts at the give out.
This will all amount to nothing when we introduce electronic scoring this year, but when??????????
I don't think these comments are immature but Rob you have opened yourself up for a broadside from John and Jon.
I can only surmise that Brooky is away as he has yet to pile in with his 2 pennorth

Can I say something?
Good luck to anyone who can obtain sponsorship. Sponsorship means event publicity.
Both John and Gary have demonstrated their willingness to put something back in. Gary sets up events, and John is a serving TCA committee member.

Just four points worth mentioning here:

a) John isn't (yet) a serving TCA member
b) Have you regrown your beard Graham?
c) so I don't have to waste sleeping time reading these witty comments, why not sort it all out with a big fist fight on the over-night? Might be better than the band (summer event only)?
d) John H took the time to reply to my "hello" when he was gunning near to the finishing line at Exmoor. And whilst I was pushing by the side of the swamp, John rode staight through the middle. So I take my sealskins off to him!

Hi Mick
Fraid so it has been bloody cold this winter so it has come back but I am getting shed loads of abuse off my 7 year old daughter
It is the same lenght as my hair now so i can turn upside down and still look the same.
So the summer band will be the sponsored few blowing their own trumpets eh? you can't beat a bit of triple tonguing on the old brass instruments (to be read in a west yorkshire accent)

Hi John - Welcome back to the Forum, Hi Beard - Welcome back to Graham

This thread performs like one of those linking games I used to play when I was about 10 years old! Get from the New 29" Fisher bike to West Yorkshire Accent.

I'm quite happy to be a sponsored rider (free bikes) all the time I have a low income job. I've made my choice and I'll ride with it.

As for me putting something back into the sport, I'm not sure what you mean.

Gary

p.s. Look out for a great new event this year. The Red Bull Northern Exposure Adventure Race. April 12th - 17th. Cairngorms. Cold, Snowy and Tough as.......Oh yeah, I'm the course planner.

All those people who say that Graham isn't perceptive, don't know what they are talking about! - I have been away! - Bit of snowboarding in Canada, which was great.

Rob, look on the bright side. What other sporting events are there where rank amateurs like yourself get the chance to directly compete with, and to learn by association from the foremost exponents of the art, the cream of the crop, the celebrity paragons of perfection at the sport?

But seriously (you didn't think I was making a serious point there did you?), what unfair advantage do you think that the riders who have secured (almost invariably) loan bikes, and maybe a bit of help with maintenance or expenses have? And the emphasis here is on *unfair*.

Probably the only difference between riders who are sponsored to do events like Polaris and the better unsponsored riders is attitude. The sponsored riders have simply decided to approach local shops or importers with a business case for being given a loan bike - Because, yes, sponsors do actually need to be persuaded to give sponsorship - they rarely hand out bikes to people on a whim.

And I'm not saying that everyone should aim to get sponsorship either. Plenty of people aren't interested in sponsorship or even being competitive. It's just that most of them don't whinge about how unfair the world is and that it hasn't been set up so that they can win.

There aren't any pampered and feted rock-star riders at a Polaris. Those of us who have got a deal on a bike have just included sponsorship as one of the areas that we are prepared to work on in order to up our game. We start from the same base as you and probably don't have any more time available for training. We just choose to train rather that watching Eastenders and are prepared to drive the length of the country to enter events on a regular basis.

Strangely enough (if you really are interested in the advantages of sponsorship), the biggest benefit I have found from being sponsored is psychological. I *know* that the very fact that I am on a sponsor's bike psyches out wanabees like you. There are actually plenty of people doing Polaris who have better bikes than the ones the sponsored riders ride so quality of bike isn't an issue, and if you think that any of the sponsored riders get assistance to the level that they can afford to spend more time training than they would do otherwise - think again. In fact the reverse is true, like Gary I make financial sacrifices in order to have more time to do sport. That's just a choice I've made, which you could make too if you thought it was that big a deal.

In short Rob, if you haven't got sponsorship its either because its not that important to you, or because you're not trying hard enough.

If you work hard then you will start getting results.

If you get results then (if you ask nicely) you might get sponsored - not the other way around.

Hi Gary, its good to be back.

Hi Graham, are you going to be using Sport
Ident for electronic punching if /When you
introduce it.

If so, are you writing the software to do score
orrienteering or Sport Ident. Oh and dont go
down the route the KIMM took by trying to make
their own punch system, it was not the most
robust I'm informed but Gary might know more
he has used it.

regards john h

Hi Jon
Welcome back, what was the snow like? I hope to get over there sometime but it I think you have to be tough to go in January and survive the cold temps.

Hi Johnh
You must be physic we are seriously looking at the KIMM system which unlike the Sport Ident system is specifically designed for a Polaris type event and the SI people have yet to write any software.
Feedback from KIMM is that SI was expensive and unreliable on batteries.
KIMM system was a bit femma on their event (they did have some controls out for a week) but they recognise where improvements need to be made but they are significantly cheaper, simpler and easier to administer.
Hope to give it a go in Spring

Hi Graham, it might be cold but the powder is
better.

I think the batterries are good, it was just to
expensive. I've done many international events
with Sport Ident (SI) and not had a problem
yet.

The problem as I see the KIMM system is its
fidly to use for the competitors, all that making
electrical contact etc hence unreliable. The TQ
AGM is getting a talk from SI, I'll let you know
about software updates and its definately the
best, if a bit pricy.

regards john h

Hey Brooky, good time?

John
Batteries are a problem as they are special and as they are rechargeable there is no way of knowing if they have enough power.
have you used them on 2 day events?
I have met with SI and discussed the use of their system and was very impressed but they are not cheap to either buy or rent and as they do not handle our type of event then we have to look around.
We talked to TQ about them renting the kit off us or a joint purchase of SI kit to make our investment viable but I think that they were not prepared to take on the cost and why should they when most TQ's use self scoring system.
With the volume of our data entry we want to be able to gst our results out quicker and release resources to do other duties.

Hi Graham, your right about the volume of data
and it will make event postmortems more
interesting.

Regarding the batteries, all the events I've
done have been one day, so they may well not
last the course.

I'm sure any kind of system will be good for a
start, but better rent it in the first instance!

Kit checks. Could we have a few spot checks
at the overnight, I'll volunteer to be checked
first.

johh h

Johnh
If we introduce electronic scoring it will release ME to do the kit checks!!!!!!!!!!
I think that the fact that every team will get a print out with a list of controls and times in the order that they visited them immediately they are downloaded at the finish line will mean that queries can be dealt with on the spot and I agree postmortems will be lively.

Dear Jon,
thankyou for your reply.
I would like to respond, if i may, to one or two points.

No-one, including myself i must add, would seriously begrudge freebies to those with the talent and wherewithall to obtain sponsorship. It is deserved, merited, rightly claimable or any other adjective one wishes to use. The point is that having a new mountain bike that is fettled, fully functioning, lubed and ready to race means that of two riders on the start line with corresponding ability the one with the superior equipment, so to speak, will have a slight advantage. Given that with most sports the difference between the top competitors is minimal, such inconsiderable advantages might be relevant. The psychological disadvantage that non-sponsored riders have is knowing that their bikes are more likely to fail

One has to accept that bike racing is, to a lesser degree than say motor sport, reliant on equipment. Though of course when compared with other athletic sports it does seem rather equipment lead. Lance Armstrong didn't win the Tour because of his bike but you can be darn sure that trek will make every effort to ensure that his bike is as good if not better than his competitors. "it's not about the bike" is certainly true with our sport, but it does help.
If sponsored riders have a problem or feel defensive about these points thats up to them, I certainly don't loose any sleep over it. I go to the outdoors for pleasure e.g. a recent 24 mile run over the moors not seeing a soul in perfect winter weather. What joy.

The reason for the orginal posting was an attempted antedote to all the talk about equipment, bikes etc. which may at times seems rather boorish to the commonalty. Many fell runners and climbers would rather talk about the aesthetics of the run/route they had just completed instead of their new titanium jockey wheels or whatever. You may be interested to know that the KIMM forum has a completely different genre (when people can be bothered to contribute).

I will finish by saying that i hope this is explanatory enough and that no-one takes offence this time.

Oh and one final item, i believe that Joe-Lee Computing, the people responsible for the KIMM electronic scoring, are currently developing a better system of punching.It may not be ready for the Polaris though.

Unfair? I'll tell you what's unfair, and it's not sponsorship. The unfair bit is the extra 2 stone and lack of ability that means I'm unable to compete on even terms with the ones who take it more seriously.

I say give everyone a weight handicap (get us all up to 14 stone?), and replace the OS map with a page torn out of a road atlas for the top few. Then you'll know what it feels like for me, and we'll all be able to compete on level terms.

James

Rob
Fair point but you did sum it all up when you said that not many people contribute to their forum.
However, I continue to be amazed by the number of teams who have to drop out on the start line or very soon because of a simple mechanical failure, this has nothing to do with sponsorship more preparation.
The bike is only a minor part of the coplex equation of winning a Polaris, just look at Aiden at the last event who had extensive punctures from riding on tyres that were too light.
Sposorship in my humble opinion does not give any advantage, theseguys who have managed to get sponsored now were still competing at the top before sponsorship and whatthey get is minimal anyway it does not allow them to become professional and train 100% of the time etc.
Unlike James of course and many other Polaris beer monsters who train religiously to maintain their svelt slim 14st bodies and compete at the highest level.
Seriosuly though, isn't this the beauty of the PC where all abilities can enter a competition and test their own ability against their peers and better.
Joe Lee is working on improvements and we are hoping to work with him to develop the system and improve the reliability but no system can compensate for stolen CP's

Rob, I'm always amazed when people come in to the forum and start complaining about the topics that other people are discussing.

Do you understand the concept of a forum?

The title of this thread is new bike types - that seems to have been what it was mostly about before you came in and hijacked it with a contentious comment that got our backs up. The thread didn't need an 'antidote' to talk about equipment. People seemed to be quite happy talking about that. If you've got other burning issues that you want to discuss then just start another thread. (do you have anything else you want to discuss?)


But anyway... onto your (still whinging) comment about bikes being lubed and fettled - if your bike isn't set up to your specification then *it is your fault* - take some responsibility for Christ's sake. Do you need someone to hold your hand and take you down to the bike shop to buy a bottle of lube or (if you don't want to do it yourself) to book it in for a service. Jeez!

Hi Rob,

"yet nothing is ever mentioned about the
patent and inherent unfairness of sponsored
riders competing against less fortunate,
though not necessarily less gifted, riders. "

Your obviously gifted Rob since you had a
"recent 24 mile run over the moors not seeing
a soul in perfect winter weather. What joy. "

I take resposibility for my bikes condition, I
service it and maintain it. Stiff fix stuff like my
forks, rebuild wheels, same as anybody else
would have done for them. Why don't you take
responsibility for your bike instead of making
excuses for your lack of results.

"The reason for the orginal posting was an
attempted antedote to all the talk about
equipment, bikes etc. which may at times
seems rather boorish to the commonalty.
Many fell runners and climbers would rather
talk about the aesthetics of the run/route they
had just completed instead of their new
titanium jockey wheels or whatever." Nice
sentiment Rob, so you start with a thread
about how your talent goes unrecognised due
to sponsored teams beating you. You could
have started with "Ideal route planning, is it
Black Magic?", "Beautiful days out while
training", "How best to hold a map in a cross
wind". Kimm does indeed have a completeley
different genre, so different that nobody
contributes at all. At least here we talk about
how to improve the event. Boring? I'm sure you
would have called Graham and Rog boring if
you saw them in the pub planning the first
Polaris.

Here is an offer, the next TQ (Nationals
excluded) that we are both racing in, why don't
you race on my bike. Actions speak louder,
don't you think?

john h

PS could you please leave your surname and
then I won't lend my bike to the wrong Rob.

nice one!

Too bloody right! I had to ride Hoolies Satan Cruz at the TQ Nats Relay, after my chain broke on the start line (yet again - FAO Jon B) and it was far too small for gangly me, and the gears didn't work either!
Gaz
p.s Grrrrr Hooolieeeee. Stop eating competitors(Caitlin) pps. You scare Morgan - re: Porage. ppps I must get you and Morgan in an event together - Gaz.
pppps. BACK ON THE SUBJECT. Just been riding the 29er with Cyclo X Tyres - quick. I'll try that for the Polaris. Punctures??

Quick excuse. Have been drinking. Have PC at home. Drinking at home. Terminal. Becoming ruddy faced Scot.

Postcript: After a dull patch in the X year the PC follows it's first 10 years and continues to hold popularity into the next 10 years. If anyone wants to talk to me about Sport Ident Versus the KIMM Joe Lee kit then phone me.

and what abut the inherent unfairness for those of us who have had to make do with gorging on "own brand" mince pies rather than Marks & Spencers? And never trust a professional to fettle and lube. I once "took advantage" of a free service at my local bike shop ("qualified cycle technicians") and they made a right Rob of it.

Gery, isn't it just an expensive (and heavy) X-bike with flat bars, now you've taken it to the logical conclusion?

Shush, Don't tell him

Ah. Yes. I guess you're right. But I'm a mountain biker! Don't wanna ride those skinny cross bikes less I can really help it! And who gets sponsored with a cross bike???

I`ll just use my new Kona Stuff 2001 :p