Sitting out here in Dubai and mulling a few things over has given me a daft idea. How about a 24hr continuous Polaris event for teams of up to 3 or 4 say. Teams would be free to change members as often as they wanted but at the event centre in a transition zone equipped with maintenance facilities and all of the other facilities that you get at a summer polaris.
Now with electronic timing CP's could have open and closing times with the event area being opened up to cover a larger area.
Based in somewhere like Dalby forest this could be a real challenge.
Running from noon to noon would allow teams to be more relaxed about travelling to and from the event.
Concerns about safety would be one thing to consider but no doubt some of you would want to try it as a solo, why not.
Sensible comments please

Graham,

I have been contemplating this very point for some time now, well since it was first mentioned about getting more people to do Polaris as numbers were falling off at the time. 24 hour and enduro type events are certainly very popular at the moment, the Red Bull filled up instantly, but realistically is it a viable proposition?

I think that for the hours of darkness the event would have to be contained in an area away from public roads - they're dangerous enough during daylight, plus you probably wouldn't want people out on exposed fellsides overnight

If you had an event centre as the hub of the competition then presumably there wouldn't be any big mileages involved, because you would have to be working on an 'out and back' scenario over short period of time say 2-3 hours.

Would riders be going out in pairs or solo?

Lots of questions, I think if we could get some meat on the bones of the idea on the forum, then I feel sure that something could be put together, even if only for a one off. Maybe run parallel with the summer event.

Was that sensible enough?

Dave A

good ideas
riders in pairs (teams of 4) in the night should keep safety in open terrain covered well. Out and back to event center would seem easiest and most sensible.
This would also allow distant high pointers to be placed where the penalty affect for riding out and back for 3 hours (say) would be more acute and difficult to judge than frequent fast arrays to nearby checkpoints.
To avoid repetitive bagging of the nearest 10 pointer alnight a minimum ride say 2 hours might be neccesary for each pair (or some other type of weighting)
The more I think about it it the more I like it..

Funny set of attitudes that thinks that a day in
the Great Outdoors is some sort of scary
expedition requiring a ton of 'safety' gear,
whereas merely off-roading for 24h non-stop
through the night on unmarked tracks is
comparatively safe!

Bear in mind that RB is just riding round a
(carefully prepared) field in Birmingham with
lots of help nearby. What sort of decision-making
do you think a solo rider will be capable of at
3am when something goes wrong in the middle of
nowhere?

Oh but I forgot, they'll be ok cos they've got
waterproof trousers...

James

That was constructive

Dave A

A quality idea.

Flesh it out more - Dalby is a good base, lots of Forest to get lost in, and open moorland relatively near, would give huge options, especially with check points opening and closing at different times. The logistics and planning would be huge, but what a laugh!!!

I would say that teams of 4 would be the best option as the night time hours would be hell - but hey, just wap up the tent when knackered, have a couple of hours kip and off you go.
Safety should be satisfactorily covered by this.

Only problem would be lights if on a long out and back.

Rules on food and cooking facilities could just be upped to take into account the increased time.

OR, as has been suggested you could have a Summer format main base and just "out and back" it.

This would be a damn fine idea, and would definately get my vote. I already know at least 4 nutters who would be up for this.

I would probably favour the full on wilderness approach with everything being self sufficient for that time.

Nigel

Maybe I'm not being constructive, but it's hard to
take the suggestion seriously.

On the one hand, we are not competent to decide
what equipment we need, and the organisers think
that we risk death by not carrying waterproof
trousers, a tent or stove.

And on the other hand, they are prepared to
contemplate having knackered disoriented
sleep-deprived cyclists stumbling around the open
countryside all night! If anyone could think up a
better recipe for hypothermia and/or a serious
fall then I'd like to hear it.

That's not to say that a 24h event is 'too
dangerous', just that it is obviously far more
dangerous than the current system. Anyone know the
final injury tally in the RB? That was going round
a field in birmingham, remember.

And as for your comment that it'd better be kept
away from roads because *they* are too
dangerous... words fail me. Maybe you've gone
head-first over the bars a few times too many.

IMO the reason why these endurance events are so
popular is that most MTBers want a hard ride
*without* having to use their brain. Navigating
through the night would test the most experienced,
let alone the numpties (BTDTWTWW).

OK some constructive comments there and maybe time for a bit of development.

Night riding - if the event is planned around June 21 then this should not be a problem. We once did a night Polaris 10years ago ib Dalby without mishap apart from Roger losing his car keys.

Knackered cyclists - should not be a problem as with 4 in a team there would be time for rest periods for recovery, they do it in the Le Mans at +200mph, would go along with 2 man teams for night riding & solos day time.

Equipment - With a transition at the event centre marquee kit would be redusced to summer levels and food would be available 24 hours, no reason not to have a support team for food and maintenance, self sufficiency only a requirement when on the hill as normal.

James
stop being a wet blanket, our rules are there as a safety blanket and to level the playing field anyone who questions them usually does it from lack of experience

21st June would clash with the RedBull, I don't know how many on here do both the RB and Polaris, but I do and a lot of my friends do....

I said around the 21st June not ON 21st June we would obviously liase and avoid clashes

even having them within a couple of weeks of each other would be pretty harsh on people wanting to ride both (me). Why not hold it at a time when there is more darkness?

Great Idea, here's my suggestion:
Normal 2 man team.
Event time split into 4 x 6 hour or 6 x 4 hour slots.
Each time split uses different live checkpoints, some of which may be the same as the last.
Teams start with first checkpoint list and finish within or on time for the first time slot....if late...usual time penalties apply. Also if late, you have less time to use in your next time slot.
Teams plan refresh etc as part of their return to base using their own time within each time slot.
Some teams might choose to sleep for the whole/part duration of one time slot.
Keeping to paired team members would make it easier to enter....but no reason why you couldn't have a 4 man (person) team class as well.

Also, I remember doing that night time Polaris :)

Blimey James, that was a bit personal.

I agree with you that the idea of doing a Polaris for 24 hours (in it's current spring / autumn format) is potentially very dangerous.

The point of the thread is to try to get some ideas together as to how we could make it safer, hence the comments "for the hours of darkness the event would have to be contained in area away from public roads" and "you wouldn't want people out on exposed fellside"

Why not use Forestry Enterprise land for the hours of darkness? They have pretty good tracks, thus reducing the chance of jamming a wheel in an unseen rut (and me not going over the handlebars again)

You could start Saturday with a standard Polaris format except back to base by a set time, followed by a night time section in a restricted area back to base and a final daylight section on the Sunday. Add up scores for the three sections and you have a winner.

On the other hand we could all decide that James is indeed correct, it is too dangerous and idea lies stillborn.

Dave A

I didn't say too dangerous. I did say far
more dangerous than the current method. I'm
sure anyone with adequate experience and
competence could cope, but I'm not sure how
high a proportion of entrants would be in
that group!

Easier perhaps to dismiss me as too
inexperienced rather than address the points
I made. As it happens, I have spent all night
on the hills navigating. I was on foot, and
not racing against the clock, so the situation
was less challenging than the proposed event.

It's really really easy to make shockingly bad
decisions at 3am. I don't just mean going
the wrong way but serious errors of judgement
regarding safety. IMO it's a recipe for
disaster.

Of course I could be wrong, it has happened
before.

Come on James, we are talking here of summer evenings in the north of england where it hardly gets dark potentially in an area where the terrain is favourable, we have done it before.
Riding off road at night is a great experience and I have been doing it since the late 80's throughout the year starting off with eveready bike lights and head torches and now using brilliant BLT's, the Polaris is not about hard navigation mainly route choices probably in large blocks of forest such as Dalby, Langdale and Cropton.
Of course it is dangerous but nothing compared to the Dubai/Abu Dhabi 8 lane road which I drive every day
Alun
Like your ideas but if we give CP's open and closing times this will break up the 24 hours.
We were thinking of giving out the contol sheet and premarked maps at the start with the full information for the 24 hours to one team member at a mass give out, so that the planning was part of the 24 hours.
Still think teams of 3/4 is the best option with support but cars would be kept in a locked compound to control cheating, do we ban mobile phones, no I don't think so?
Let's hope that we have a nice weekend like that summer Night Polaris :)
If a choice has to be made between RB and 24P then surely an event going round in circles cannot match a 24P for interest and personal satisfaction IMHO

That's ok then, I thought Polaris was some
intrepid outdoor expedition where we all
needed saving from our own stupidity and
anyone who ventured outside their front
door without waterproof trousers richly
desevered the hypothermia that would surely
be their fate.

But if we are all agreed that it's only a
gentle pootle in the countryside, no problems.

It's not just the dark so much as the sleep
deprivation on top of the extremely long
riding hours, on top of the dark. But if you
constrain people to riding in a small area,
and basically turn it into another RB, then
it won't be any more dangerous than RB.

Anyway, that's my opinion, freely offered and
you are free to ignore it!

Graham I think this is a great idea. Adventure races run through the night and some last for a number of days, 24 hours on the bike can't be any more dangerous than those. Having said that I think team based would be preferable to solo as a precaution.
I also wondered if you could use a format where there were a number of compulsary checkpoints which had to be reached before a specified cut off time and in a set order. This would give an early indication if a team had gone missing. There would be other optional checkpoints in between the compulsaries so route choice would still be important and it wouldn't just be a straight race. If you are using an electronic punch system wouldn't this also increase safety as you would at least know the location and time of any team at their last checkpoint.

I'm glad you have realised james that entering the polaris is just an easy pootle round a few hills, you want to try being stuck on a checkpoint all day on a welsh hillside in a howling gale and trying to get team numbers off teams without losing your list.Then you might see the hard side ;)
But Seriously ... What a great idea.
It has a few potential drawbacks ( I don't fancy creeping round the perimeter fence of Fylingdales in the middle of the night looking for a checkpoint .. ) but none are real killers.
Teams of 4 may be better especially if each person must score a minimum number of checkpoints, but teams of 2 would offer all the usual safety against being stuck on the hills.
It would probably need a hell of a lot more checkpoints than a normal one even if they are only live for a limited time, after all some folks seem to visit nearly all at present and thats in only 12 riding hours, this would suggest the need for a larger event area.
However having also marshelled on a night time orienteering course I know for a fact a lot of time is wasted actually finding the control, I have seen people only yards off give up convinced they are in the totally wrong place
I reckon it's a goer and if I can't persuade my regular partner and his mates to do it then i'm up for marshelling
Good Luck and heres hoping

... sounds like a great idea to me. On the
safety front, my experience of sleep
deprivation is that with teams of two each
member is seldom feeling 'spaced' at the
same time, allowing at the 'sane' one to keep
an eye out for serious weaving and maybe
rein them in a bit/pour Coke into them/sing to
them (it works!).

On the crash front, I'm sure my brother Steve
won't mind me mentioning our incident-free
ride in the night trailquest at Cannock a few
weeks back, followed by his spectacular
over-the-bars wipeout in broad daylight the
following day - on the same track we'd used at
1am the night before.

Good ideas from Mick Tucker's Cannock event
- checking back in to control centre after doing
'half' the map for a second giveout/bodycount;
highly reflective markers at checkpoints.

Let's get RED BULL to sponsor this and put a crate or two at strategic checkpoints monitored by marshalls.
Also like the RED BULL Mountain Mayhem it might be useful to employ the cadets as part of the marshalling force. They have excellent communications and first aid training. They might even be able to add a bit of counselling to help James get over his fear of the outdoors.

Personally, I am worried by the prospect of night riding on a Polaris style event. BUT, how about running a Mega-Polaris summer special event over a 3-day bank holday with 8 hours per day. That should satisfy even my craving for big distance routes???

I fail to understand this paranoria about riding in the dark.
What is the difference between riding in thick fog and the dark, surely on the PC teams have to adjust their speed etc to suit the prevailing conditions and ride safely.
Ok on a 24 hour event teams will be tired but team management is all part of an endurance event and rest periods should allow sufficent time for recovery bearing in mind that all route planning can be done st base whilst pairs of riders are out and about.
I tried Red Bull the other night in a the Jebel Ali Club after the England/Brazil game when I ran out of Amstel Lite, it tastes shite so I switched to Guiness.

.... I just hope you had your waterproof
trousers on.

Hell of difference between thick fog & dark. In both you need to navigate, but you don't need lights to ride off road in the fog, you just adjust your speed and ride slower.
If your lights fail in the dark, you're walking.

I'm not scared of riding in the dark, I do it
regularly (yes, I do mean off-road). There are
several night-time TQ events which don't seem
to have any problems. But doing it in a sleep-
deprived state in unfamiliar territory over
the sort of area that 24h implies, especially
solo, seems to be FAR more dangerous than
ordinary polari. Given your attitude towards
the minimal risks involved in not carrying
a tent (for example) I find this rather
puzzling. It wasn't long ago that even
a solo polaris (spring/autumn) was considered
to be an unacceptable risk, even though people
go for solo rides/walks in much more hostile
environments with much less equipment regularly.

James

That was a very good point, well made.

Are you totally against the idea of a 24hr Polaris?, if not then I feel sure you could make some worthwhile suggestions as to how to make such an event safer for the people who, quite obviously from the forum, would like to do a 24hr version.

It is called the Polaris CHALLENGE after all.

Dave A

How many teams do we think would compete in a 24h event?

I don't really care much if people want to do it,
I certainly can't object to anyone who wants to.
I'm just amazed that it is being considered,
especially given the previously
(over?)stated worry about riders getting
themselves into trouble.

I think that many of the suggestions that have
already been made are sensible. Given the type
of person who might enter, letting them ride
solo for 24h seems like a non-starter. That's
more than 3 times as far as each day of a normal
event, which means they could be 3 times as far
away (10 times the area covered!) when they fall
into a ditch. So then it's a case of relays or
regularly checking in to a manned control centre.
Even 6 hours seems like a long time. Also few
MTBers have anywhere near enough light for a full
night ride - so unless everyone goes out and buys
a whole stack of new kit, you're looking at
swapping every 2 hours(ish) anyway.

Basically, it's starting to sound like riding
round a short course ie red bull. Have to make
sure it's not technically a race, or else you
really would need a fixed course over private
land. It might be fun, but it's not what I
believe was being suggested as a 24h polaris,
more of a crowded party than a wilderness
experience.

Also re number of entries, I know RB is hugely
oversubscribed, but it does seem like it's mainly
famous for being famous. Perhaps also fun
because it's such a big event, lots of people
around all the time to chat to. No-one I know
goes out on 24h non-stop MTB rides by themselves
or even with a friend.

James
You are really starting to pee me off here in the UAE and obviously don't want to do it and I don't really care.
The PC is a CHALLENGE and has tried to meve with the times but you seem to be hung up on equipment.
The concensus of opinion is that it is for teams of 4 and at least 2 must ride in the night section, you obviously won't be cos you probably have no mates.
As for sleep deprivation, have you ever done a PC, teams arrive late, imbibe copious amounts of ale, get up early, shiver all night in a tent and ride again, surely that is also sleep deprivation.
With the format we have in mind teams will have a relaxed start and will be able to manage their rest so that they can compete during the night.
I know many guys and have read of others who ride for 24hours on challenges like the C2C or 3 peaks so get real James, or get a life.
Nuff said now how about a few more positive ideas.
The 24 hour PC is not meant to copy the RB but allow another endurance outlet for those who are up for a different challenge

Go for it thats my responce.there seems to be a bit of paranoia about safety and the dark if thats how some people feel fine nobody is forced to do it.What was the thought of people on the 1st Polaris,camping out in the wild etc,i bet they were filled with trepidation mixed with excitement.The sport we do has a built in risk factor after all is'nt that part of the reason we do it.so give it a shot i will make one up. Unless there is bogey men out there in the dark.

Okay we will do it -
DATE - 17-18 May 2002
VENUE = North yorks moors (TBC)

We are working on the rules and we will formally anounce the format just after the Summer event.

The working title for the event is NAVITAC (navigation & Tactics)

Watch out for more details

uh, do you mean 2003? otherwise we have all slept through this one!!

Just to muddy the waters a bit (and maybe allay
some fears about people pedalling around at 3am),
why not make it an offroad duathlon, with an
obligatory 'foot' score section during the darkest
part of the night? Going arse-over-tit at 3mph
would probably not hurt as much as 25mph...

I reckon a two-day duathlon , summer
Polaris-style, would also get good support.
Bike/run both days, separate areas, central
transition and give-out.

Just a thought...

In the meantime, good on 'yer for setting a date
for 24hrs - count me (& loads more from up 'ere)
in

Well thats taken the plunge Roger.Can i suggest teams set like the Red Bull,Sports,Mixed etc i think you would get more of a responce rather than the old age thing,Yer'no vets old buggers and all that,and it gives a chance to bunk up with someones girlfriend while there up Lilla Cross at 3am,(its on the N.Y.M in the middle of nowhere)

just to lower the tone, I've been out at 3 a.m. in waterproof trousers, but it had nothing to do with mountain biking