Sitting out here in Dubai and mulling a few things over has given me a daft idea. How about a 24hr continuous Polaris event for teams of up to 3 or 4 say. Teams would be free to change members as often as they wanted but at the event centre in a transition zone equipped with maintenance facilities and all of the other facilities that you get at a summer polaris.
Now with electronic timing CP's could have open and closing times with the event area being opened up to cover a larger area.
Based in somewhere like Dalby forest this could be a real challenge.
Running from noon to noon would allow teams to be more relaxed about travelling to and from the event.
Concerns about safety would be one thing to consider but no doubt some of you would want to try it as a solo, why not.
Sensible comments please

Graham,

I have been contemplating this very point for some time now, well since it was first mentioned about getting more people to do Polaris as numbers were falling off at the time. 24 hour and enduro type events are certainly very popular at the moment, the Red Bull filled up instantly, but realistically is it a viable proposition?

I think that for the hours of darkness the event would have to be contained in an area away from public roads - they're dangerous enough during daylight, plus you probably wouldn't want people out on exposed fellsides overnight

If you had an event centre as the hub of the competition then presumably there wouldn't be any big mileages involved, because you would have to be working on an 'out and back' scenario over short period of time say 2-3 hours.

Would riders be going out in pairs or solo?

Lots of questions, I think if we could get some meat on the bones of the idea on the forum, then I feel sure that something could be put together, even if only for a one off. Maybe run parallel with the summer event.

Was that sensible enough?

Dave A

good ideas
riders in pairs (teams of 4) in the night should keep safety in open terrain covered well. Out and back to event center would seem easiest and most sensible.
This would also allow distant high pointers to be placed where the penalty affect for riding out and back for 3 hours (say) would be more acute and difficult to judge than frequent fast arrays to nearby checkpoints.
To avoid repetitive bagging of the nearest 10 pointer alnight a minimum ride say 2 hours might be neccesary for each pair (or some other type of weighting)
The more I think about it it the more I like it..

Funny set of attitudes that thinks that a day in
the Great Outdoors is some sort of scary
expedition requiring a ton of 'safety' gear,
whereas merely off-roading for 24h non-stop
through the night on unmarked tracks is
comparatively safe!

Bear in mind that RB is just riding round a
(carefully prepared) field in Birmingham with
lots of help nearby. What sort of decision-making
do you think a solo rider will be capable of at
3am when something goes wrong in the middle of
nowhere?

Oh but I forgot, they'll be ok cos they've got
waterproof trousers...

James

That was constructive

Dave A

A quality idea.

Flesh it out more - Dalby is a good base, lots of Forest to get lost in, and open moorland relatively near, would give huge options, especially with check points opening and closing at different times. The logistics and planning would be huge, but what a laugh!!!

I would say that teams of 4 would be the best option as the night time hours would be hell - but hey, just wap up the tent when knackered, have a couple of hours kip and off you go.
Safety should be satisfactorily covered by this.

Only problem would be lights if on a long out and back.

Rules on food and cooking facilities could just be upped to take into account the increased time.

OR, as has been suggested you could have a Summer format main base and just "out and back" it.

This would be a damn fine idea, and would definately get my vote. I already know at least 4 nutters who would be up for this.

I would probably favour the full on wilderness approach with everything being self sufficient for that time.

Nigel

Maybe I'm not being constructive, but it's hard to
take the suggestion seriously.

On the one hand, we are not competent to decide
what equipment we need, and the organisers think
that we risk death by not carrying waterproof
trousers, a tent or stove.

And on the other hand, they are prepared to
contemplate having knackered disoriented
sleep-deprived cyclists stumbling around the open
countryside all night! If anyone could think up a
better recipe for hypothermia and/or a serious
fall then I'd like to hear it.

That's not to say that a 24h event is 'too
dangerous', just that it is obviously far more
dangerous than the current system. Anyone know the
final injury tally in the RB? That was going round
a field in birmingham, remember.

And as for your comment that it'd better be kept
away from roads because *they* are too
dangerous... words fail me. Maybe you've gone
head-first over the bars a few times too many.

IMO the reason why these endurance events are so
popular is that most MTBers want a hard ride
*without* having to use their brain. Navigating
through the night would test the most experienced,
let alone the numpties (BTDTWTWW).

OK some constructive comments there and maybe time for a bit of development.

Night riding - if the event is planned around June 21 then this should not be a problem. We once did a night Polaris 10years ago ib Dalby without mishap apart from Roger losing his car keys.

Knackered cyclists - should not be a problem as with 4 in a team there would be time for rest periods for recovery, they do it in the Le Mans at +200mph, would go along with 2 man teams for night riding & solos day time.

Equipment - With a transition at the event centre marquee kit would be redusced to summer levels and food would be available 24 hours, no reason not to have a support team for food and maintenance, self sufficiency only a requirement when on the hill as normal.

James
stop being a wet blanket, our rules are there as a safety blanket and to level the playing field anyone who questions them usually does it from lack of experience

21st June would clash with the RedBull, I don't know how many on here do both the RB and Polaris, but I do and a lot of my friends do....

I said around the 21st June not ON 21st June we would obviously liase and avoid clashes

even having them within a couple of weeks of each other would be pretty harsh on people wanting to ride both (me). Why not hold it at a time when there is more darkness?

Great Idea, here's my suggestion:
Normal 2 man team.
Event time split into 4 x 6 hour or 6 x 4 hour slots.
Each time split uses different live checkpoints, some of which may be the same as the last.
Teams start with first checkpoint list and finish within or on time for the first time slot....if late...usual time penalties apply. Also if late, you have less time to use in your next time slot.
Teams plan refresh etc as part of their return to base using their own time within each time slot.
Some teams might choose to sleep for the whole/part duration of one time slot.
Keeping to paired team members would make it easier to enter....but no reason why you couldn't have a 4 man (person) team class as well.

Also, I remember doing that night time Polaris :)

Blimey James, that was a bit personal.

I agree with you that the idea of doing a Polaris for 24 hours (in it's current spring / autumn format) is potentially very dangerous.

The point of the thread is to try to get some ideas together as to how we could make it safer, hence the comments "for the hours of darkness the event would have to be contained in area away from public roads" and "you wouldn't want people out on exposed fellside"

Why not use Forestry Enterprise land for the hours of darkness? They have pretty good tracks, thus reducing the chance of jamming a wheel in an unseen rut (and me not going over the handlebars again)

You could start Saturday with a standard Polaris format except back to base by a set time, followed by a night time section in a restricted area back to base and a final daylight section on the Sunday. Add up scores for the three sections and you have a winner.

On the other hand we could all decide that James is indeed correct, it is too dangerous and idea lies stillborn.

Dave A

I didn't say too dangerous. I did say far
more dangerous than the current method. I'm
sure anyone with adequate experience and
competence could cope, but I'm not sure how
high a proportion of entrants would be in
that group!

Easier perhaps to dismiss me as too
inexperienced rather than address the points
I made. As it happens, I have spent all night
on the hills navigating. I was on foot, and
not racing against the clock, so the situation
was less challenging than the proposed event.

It's really really easy to make shockingly bad
decisions at 3am. I don't just mean going
the wrong way but serious errors of judgement
regarding safety. IMO it's a recipe for
disaster.

Of course I could be wrong, it has happened
before.

Come on James, we are talking here of summer evenings in the north of england where it hardly gets dark potentially in an area where the terrain is favourable, we have done it before.
Riding off road at night is a great experience and I have been doing it since the late 80's throughout the year starting off with eveready bike lights and head torches and now using brilliant BLT's, the Polaris is not about hard navigation mainly route choices probably in large blocks of forest such as Dalby, Langdale and Cropton.
Of course it is dangerous but nothing compared to the Dubai/Abu Dhabi 8 lane road which I drive every day
Alun
Like your ideas but if we give CP's open and closing times this will break up the 24 hours.
We were thinking of giving out the contol sheet and premarked maps at the start with the full information for the 24 hours to one team member at a mass give out, so that the planning was part of the 24 hours.
Still think teams of 3/4 is the best option with support but cars would be kept in a locked compound to control cheating, do we ban mobile phones, no I don't think so?
Let's hope that we have a nice weekend like that summer Night Polaris :)
If a choice has to be made between RB and 24P then surely an event going round in circles cannot match a 24P for interest and personal satisfaction IMHO

That's ok then, I thought Polaris was some
intrepid outdoor expedition where we all
needed saving from our own stupidity and
anyone who ventured outside their front
door without waterproof trousers richly
desevered the hypothermia that would surely
be their fate.

But if we are all agreed that it's only a
gentle pootle in the countryside, no problems.

It's not just the dark so much as the sleep
deprivation on top of the extremely long
riding hours, on top of the dark. But if you
constrain people to riding in a small area,
and basically turn it into another RB, then
it won't be any more dangerous than RB.

Anyway, that's my opinion, freely offered and
you are free to ignore it!

Graham I think this is a great idea. Adventure races run through the night and some last for a number of days, 24 hours on the bike can't be any more dangerous than those. Having said that I think team based would be preferable to solo as a precaution.
I also wondered if you could use a format where there were a number of compulsary checkpoints which had to be reached before a specified cut off time and in a set order. This would give an early indication if a team had gone missing. There would be other optional checkpoints in between the compulsaries so route choice would still be important and it wouldn't just be a straight race. If you are using an electronic punch system wouldn't this also increase safety as you would at least know the location and time of any team at their last checkpoint.

I'm glad you have realised james that entering the polaris is just an easy pootle round a few hills, you want to try being stuck on a checkpoint all day on a welsh hillside in a howling gale and trying to get team numbers off teams without losing your list.Then you might see the hard side ;)
But Seriously ... What a great idea.
It has a few potential drawbacks ( I don't fancy creeping round the perimeter fence of Fylingdales in the middle of the night looking for a checkpoint .. ) but none are real killers.
Teams of 4 may be better especially if each person must score a minimum number of checkpoints, but teams of 2 would offer all the usual safety against being stuck on the hills.
It would probably need a hell of a lot more checkpoints than a normal one even if they are only live for a limited time, after all some folks seem to visit nearly all at present and thats in only 12 riding hours, this would suggest the need for a larger event area.
However having also marshelled on a night time orienteering course I know for a fact a lot of time is wasted actually finding the control, I have seen people only yards off give up convinced they are in the totally wrong place
I reckon it's a goer and if I can't persuade my regular partner and his mates to do it then i'm up for marshelling
Good Luck and heres hoping

... sounds like a great idea to me. On the
safety front, my experience of sleep
deprivation is that with teams of two each
member is seldom feeling 'spaced' at the
same time, allowing at the 'sane' one to keep
an eye out for serious weaving and maybe
rein them in a bit/pour Coke into them/sing to
them (it works!).

On the crash front, I'm sure my brother Steve
won't mind me mentioning our incident-free
ride in the night trailquest at Cannock a few
weeks back, followed by his spectacular
over-the-bars wipeout in broad daylight the
following day - on the same track we'd used at
1am the night before.

Good ideas from Mick Tucker's Cannock event
- checking back in to control centre after doing
'half' the map for a second giveout/bodycount;
highly reflective markers at checkpoints.

Let's get RED BULL to sponsor this and put a crate or two at strategic checkpoints monitored by marshalls.
Also like the RED BULL Mountain Mayhem it might be useful to employ the cadets as part of the marshalling force. They have excellent communications and first aid training. They might even be able to add a bit of counselling to help James get over his fear of the outdoors.

Personally, I am worried by the prospect of night riding on a Polaris style event. BUT, how about running a Mega-Polaris summer special event over a 3-day bank holday with 8 hours per day. That should satisfy even my craving for big distance routes???

I fail to understand this paranoria about riding in the dark.
What is the difference between riding in thick fog and the dark, surely on the PC teams have to adjust their speed etc to suit the prevailing conditions and ride safely.
Ok on a 24 hour event teams will be tired but team management is all part of an endurance event and rest periods should allow sufficent time for recovery bearing in mind that all route planning can be done st base whilst pairs of riders are out and about.
I tried Red Bull the other night in a the Jebel Ali Club after the England/Brazil game when I ran out of Amstel Lite, it tastes shite so I switched to Guiness.

.... I just hope you had your waterproof
trousers on.

Hell of difference between thick fog & dark. In both you need to navigate, but you don't need lights to ride off road in the fog, you just adjust your speed and ride slower.
If your lights fail in the dark, you're walking.

I'm not scared of riding in the dark, I do it
regularly (yes, I do mean off-road). There are
several night-time TQ events which don't seem
to have any problems. But doing it in a sleep-
deprived state in unfamiliar territory over
the sort of area that 24h implies, especially
solo, seems to be FAR more dangerous than
ordinary polari. Given your attitude towards
the minimal risks involved in not carrying
a tent (for example) I find this rather
puzzling. It wasn't long ago that even
a solo polaris (spring/autumn) was considered
to be an unacceptable risk, even though people
go for solo rides/walks in much more hostile
environments with much less equipment regularly.

James

That was a very good point, well made.

Are you totally against the idea of a 24hr Polaris?, if not then I feel sure you could make some worthwhile suggestions as to how to make such an event safer for the people who, quite obviously from the forum, would like to do a 24hr version.

It is called the Polaris CHALLENGE after all.

Dave A

How many teams do we think would compete in a 24h event?

I don't really care much if people want to do it,
I certainly can't object to anyone who wants to.
I'm just amazed that it is being considered,
especially given the previously
(over?)stated worry about riders getting
themselves into trouble.

I think that many of the suggestions that have
already been made are sensible. Given the type
of person who might enter, letting them ride
solo for 24h seems like a non-starter. That's
more than 3 times as far as each day of a normal
event, which means they could be 3 times as far
away (10 times the area covered!) when they fall
into a ditch. So then it's a case of relays or
regularly checking in to a manned control centre.
Even 6 hours seems like a long time. Also few
MTBers have anywhere near enough light for a full
night ride - so unless everyone goes out and buys
a whole stack of new kit, you're looking at
swapping every 2 hours(ish) anyway.

Basically, it's starting to sound like riding
round a short course ie red bull. Have to make
sure it's not technically a race, or else you
really would need a fixed course over private
land. It might be fun, but it's not what I
believe was being suggested as a 24h polaris,
more of a crowded party than a wilderness
experience.

Also re number of entries, I know RB is hugely
oversubscribed, but it does seem like it's mainly
famous for being famous. Perhaps also fun
because it's such a big event, lots of people
around all the time to chat to. No-one I know
goes out on 24h non-stop MTB rides by themselves
or even with a friend.

James
You are really starting to pee me off here in the UAE and obviously don't want to do it and I don't really care.
The PC is a CHALLENGE and has tried to meve with the times but you seem to be hung up on equipment.
The concensus of opinion is that it is for teams of 4 and at least 2 must ride in the night section, you obviously won't be cos you probably have no mates.
As for sleep deprivation, have you ever done a PC, teams arrive late, imbibe copious amounts of ale, get up early, shiver all night in a tent and ride again, surely that is also sleep deprivation.
With the format we have in mind teams will have a relaxed start and will be able to manage their rest so that they can compete during the night.
I know many guys and have read of others who ride for 24hours on challenges like the C2C or 3 peaks so get real James, or get a life.
Nuff said now how about a few more positive ideas.
The 24 hour PC is not meant to copy the RB but allow another endurance outlet for those who are up for a different challenge

Go for it thats my responce.there seems to be a bit of paranoia about safety and the dark if thats how some people feel fine nobody is forced to do it.What was the thought of people on the 1st Polaris,camping out in the wild etc,i bet they were filled with trepidation mixed with excitement.The sport we do has a built in risk factor after all is'nt that part of the reason we do it.so give it a shot i will make one up. Unless there is bogey men out there in the dark.

Okay we will do it -
DATE - 17-18 May 2002
VENUE = North yorks moors (TBC)

We are working on the rules and we will formally anounce the format just after the Summer event.

The working title for the event is NAVITAC (navigation & Tactics)

Watch out for more details

uh, do you mean 2003? otherwise we have all slept through this one!!

Just to muddy the waters a bit (and maybe allay
some fears about people pedalling around at 3am),
why not make it an offroad duathlon, with an
obligatory 'foot' score section during the darkest
part of the night? Going arse-over-tit at 3mph
would probably not hurt as much as 25mph...

I reckon a two-day duathlon , summer
Polaris-style, would also get good support.
Bike/run both days, separate areas, central
transition and give-out.

Just a thought...

In the meantime, good on 'yer for setting a date
for 24hrs - count me (& loads more from up 'ere)
in

Well thats taken the plunge Roger.Can i suggest teams set like the Red Bull,Sports,Mixed etc i think you would get more of a responce rather than the old age thing,Yer'no vets old buggers and all that,and it gives a chance to bunk up with someones girlfriend while there up Lilla Cross at 3am,(its on the N.Y.M in the middle of nowhere)

just to lower the tone, I've been out at 3 a.m. in waterproof trousers, but it had nothing to do with mountain biking

Graham. Don't let the doubters put you off. As someone who has done a number of night events including night relay foot O events I think its a great idea and not as dangerous as some seem to think. But hey it's not compulsory-let those who want this sort of challenge rise to it. Others can stay at home in their sleeping bags and waterproof trousers with a mug of cocoa!

Rog NOw theres a real challenge mbiking 24hrs and time travel combined I guess you mean May 2003 not2002 or is this an added dimension. Whatever count me in!

Give me more!

Any idea when the final rules will be decided upon?

Count us in.

Longstaff, it's the Godfather. How are you out there in the desert.See you back in North Yorkshire for a ride and a barby when you get back.
The 24 hour Polaris, a great idea, we have all been doing night riding for years in our neck of the woods, remember coming back over the moor and through the woods, five bikes one front light and two rear!!!!. seriously we are all experienced enough to make the decision "Is this the event for me". I think blokes like James better stay at home. The Polaris just gets better each year.

I would definitely be up for it.

I think a noon start would be good. After all, it is not compulsory to ride at night if people dont want to. That would stil leave say 18 hours ride time and personally that's more than enough for me. I also have an active imagination and much prefer open areas to wooded areas at night-time. Better visibility for a start although paths sometimes harder to find.

if there is concern about the safety element (and it is right there should be within reason), then perhaps the first such event could be somewhere relatively non-hostile (NYM, New Forest, etc)

I'd do it if there was a solo category - I was
vaguely thinking of doing
the World rogaining champs (24 hour foot-O
event, from a base camp and much as
envisaged here), which were in the Czech
Republic this year, but getting married and
building a kitchen got in the way.

Ditto - solo cat sounds great. Count me in.
PaulH

I'd gladly do a 24hr Polaris Challenge. Haven't really read the thread, but I'd do it regardless of the format, solo or team.

Why do people feel the need to throw themselves into things in a very yank style gung-ho manner? "Count me in", "yeah, i'm up for that". What a load of crap. If anyone thinks it is safe to ride solo during the night on possibly and probably unknown terrain after challenging themselves to cram as many hours of riding in during the daylight hours, then i'm an astronaut. A snapped chain or even a puncture in the pitch black, chucking down with rain, at 3:30 in the morning on the side of a hill and you're alone. Well i like a challenge but theres a fine line between challenge and chore and i'm afraid the nutters have gone over it.Team entry obviously a different kettle of fish. In the wee small hours you need people looking out for you and all the moral support which is provided by a friendly voice only a matter of yards away. So, don't count me in and all you commando types, please make sure your BUPA membership is up to date.

Why do people feel the need to slag other
people off just because they do not agree with
an event. Keep the critic to the issues of the
event, don't get personal since you do not
know how experienced the "Count me in",
"yeah, i'm up for that" people are.

Your comments DC are unfounded in your
reply to Gary T. He has completed several
24hr bike events, numerous sleep deprivation
Adventure races and many other horror trips,
not to mention done every single Polaris
except the last one.

Sounds like you entered the debate in a rather
commando gun-ho manner.

john h

Thanks John H - fully support your reply to 'dc'. And just for the record, my experience of night nav ex inlcudes several 'round the clock' events, such as 24 peaks in 24 hours in the Lake District.
We are all adults (hopefully)and can make our own decisions and live with the consequences with challenging events of this nature. And for the record, I do have BUPA membership!

on your own????.....for the duration???

DC yes a 24 hour event would contain a much higher elemnet of risk than riding round the local bike way on a Sunday afternoon however either add to the debate in a positive fashion or keep quiet - everyone has their own risk threshhold and its up to you to try to shape the event into sonething your comfortable with or simply not enter, not to critisize others for having bigger balls than you.

Personally I'm happy to ride through town, doge traffic and jump the odd red light, not happy to go solo in an event like this (MY RISK PERCEPTION) but I defend the right of these others who believe they can cope or perhaps just want to find out if they can.

They can push the envelope as far as they dare go.

Is it just that your too scared to play and don't like the idea of the bigger boys and girls having some fun without you?

As we live in a democratic society, I have the right to air my opinion.

If individuals feel that they are being criticised then that's for them to come to terms with. What I don't relate to is the attitude that the thread is developing. I also believe that organising an event of the Polaris type and allowing solo entry over a 24 hour period is irresponsible, inviting people to test themselves, yes, but possibly just pushing the envelope too far.Hey, I don't profess to know it all, after all this is a discussion forum. Doing the event is not the problem. Obviously my choice is a team event, that is my opinion and I stick by it. As for riding around the park on a Sunday. If thats what liberty wants, then get on with it, personally I prefer what's on my doorstep. The Lakes, Kielder, Hamsterley, the Border region of Northumberland and Scotland. I know what good riding is.

One last thing. If someone can prove me wrong on the NAVITAC then i'll be more than happy because then the stakes are raised and I know where to aim for, after all none of us would be sat here typing if we did not like a challenge.

As a hopefully constructive suggestion, why not
run the event as a multi-stage contest, with
perhaps 3-4 events of about 3-7 hours duration?
Maybe 4 events, with 2 shorter ones in the night.

Give each event a slightly different flavour,
perhaps a fixed course MTBO (or is this too
difficult as it's a race?) along with standard
polaris-type. Any other ideas?

The aim of this is to cut down on the area
covered, also reduce the unhealthy reliance
on expensive high-tech lighting systems and
make it work sensibly as a relay for teams.
Would also be possible solo, at least they
would not end up so far away from help and
get a bit of rest.

I don't think there's any question that lots
of people could do 24h safely. The problem
is, what about the have-a-go-heroes who think
that they can, but can't...

All of this "it's too dangerous ... no, its too
easy... no, people need protecting" stuff is
totally bogus. There are already plenty of
things that people get involved in that are far
more dangerous than Polaris and people will
make up their own minds whether to enter or
not. Lets just concentrate on getting a format
that will be most fun for the biggest number of
people.

Obviusly the organisers must have an eye to
safety concerns but I think that as long as they
make it absolutely clear what is involved then
people will be able to make up their own
minds about what their personal limits are
and how to approach the event if they do it.

I must say that I like the bike-foot-bike idea.

How about this for a format?:

Three give outs of checkpoint coordinates at 8
hour intervals - say at noon, 8 p.m. and 4 a.m.
First set to be done by bike second by foot,
third by bike. Checkpoints to be marked up
within the event time (which means that solo
competitors will have at least two compulsory
rests at base camp whilst they do theirs).
Teams can mark their maps whilst other
members are active on the course. No time
penalties for first two sets of controls (or
maybe not for the first hour late anyway so that
team members can mark up a second map if
they want and do a quick change over, but
people will be spotted if really late) Team
riders/runners can come in and swap over
whenever they like but each checkpoint can
only be got once.

This format would restrict the event area, still
be attractive to people who were worried
about riding in the dark and maybe attract in a
few new entries from teams made up of a mix
of specialist riders and runners. it would
probably still appeal greatly to plenty of the
riders who do 24 hour events most of whom
seem to be runners too.

Not bad off the top of me head eh?

Nice one, very cool format idea. Just please don't add a swim section!

One small point Jon, there are many multisport events which include running, so why make this one? It would exclude me for one as I have knee trouble and can't run any more.

One other thing Jon. I like many others visit this site because we are mountain bikers, whilst a few of them also indulge in the odd run now and again they would still consider themselves to be MTB biased. I support Keith. I believe that Polaris have created a MTB event that is recognised worldwide and to add another discipline which we'd have to train for when time is already at a premium (for most blokes who work and have families) is a bridge too far. On a personal level, I detest running but still want to participate in this NAVITAC event so why venture into the realms of adventure racing.

I don't think it would be like an adventure race
- there you usually have to do everything but
this would be a relay - people who only want
to bike would have 16 hours of biking time to
go at with a nice kip in the middle whilst their
runner/s were out doing their bit. I think that
would be enough for most people. Others
who liked doing both could mix it up differently
doing a bit of each - like I said at the begining,
I was just trying to think of a format that would
please most of the people most of the time.
Even I am not optimistic enough to think that
there will be an event that everyone who does
Polaris would want to do but which isn't
Polaris (don't forget that we'll still have Polaris
too - I didn't get the impression that this was
being touted as a replacement)

I think it would be really interesting in terms of
putting a team together and team dynamics -
bikers could do an event with running mates
without having to run. It would be nice to see
some new faces at Polaris events too.

I thought it was being touted as a 24hr Polaris and I can't see any reason why running should be included except that people who do adventure races would prefer it.

I didn't think anything specific was being touted, but that Graham was keen to explore new ideas.
I reckon Jon's suggestion is pretty attractive and should be looked at closely. I have plenty of mainly running mates who would happily join in with this kind of thing.
A mixed team would have the potential to open up Polaris type events to new people, who would add to atmosphere and hopefully get bitten by the Polaris/MTB bug.
A mixed bike/running event should exclude no more of the Polaris regulars than a pure 24hr Polaris, as many regulars do or could get involved in running as well as biking (a great cross training idea), and those that don't should be able to team up with runners (there will be plenty who would be up for this, if publicised well).
It sounds like real buz and one that does not involve night riding in wild areas (not a well populated/marked Red Bull type circuit), which a lot of people, including me, don't fancy.
So, as Jon says, let's look for ideas to open the events up to more people, not to restrict them to an ever smaller clique.

Well if I'd got there first that would be pretty
much what I would have said, but I think there
is another good reason for having a
foot-O bit in the middle of a 24 hour event
which is that it would open up some different
tracks for those that might be going solo or
doing a bit of both running and biking.
I think it might be a bit dull and dispiriting for
teams that were doing a few transitions in a
24 hour bike-only event to go backwards and
forwards over the same few miles to get to the
points that they haven't done yet, which would
be almost inevitable.

However, another idea might be to allow
people the choice of running or biking over
some bits, but obviously with runners being
able to use footpaths and bikers not - that
might make for a few interesting tactical
decisions!

Somebody way up the thread did say
something about there being loads of multi
discipline events compared to those that are
just biking but I don't agree - have a look at the
Trailquest calendar - or if down south at
Trailbreak events, there are loads.

Also there is some evidence that Bike-O and
foot O can go together really well - one of the
most *fun* events I did this year was the
EBOR Trailquest weekend that included
MTBO, a trailquest and a foot -O, which I think
appealed to dyed in the wool trailquest people
and some that were new to the sport crossing
over from foot-O.

Incidentally Keith, even if you have got a dodgy
knee and can't run much, I think you might fare
reasonably well against even a quite good
runner if they weren't also an orienteer as long
as the nav challenges were made interesting.

Ok looks like I'm out voted. Incidentaly advice from two physios is that I don't run at all. I guess I will just have to kidnap a runner for the team.

Keith, I don't think you should feel out voted, I
think we should keep kicking the ideas
around - not all that many people have added
their thoughts yet - maybe some more will
chip in.

By the way, you know what they say... when
you've had a second opinion and you still don't
like the outcome... its time to get a third
opinion.

Personally I'm not a fan of running, and
I suspect it will put off a lot of the
mid-pack types (ie the majority of entry
fees). Jogging for 1 hour or more is
serious stuff, people would have to go
and train specifically for it, or suffer
badly if they didn't.

Also night cycling is a lot of fun, so long as
it's not too demanding on lighting systems
or sleep deprivation.

Just my opinion, as always.

Rog,
When can we expect details to be finalised for this event?

Here's another idea for Graham, Rog, Karen
etc.

Chances are that this forum, though good for
a bit of quick and dirty research into new
ideas, is not really representative of the main
body of Polaris competitors. So why don't you
put together a questionaire in time for Autumn
Polaris and get people to fill it in prior to
registration? That way you could put a few
options to a lot more people and get a better
feel for what might work. - Slip us a few quid
and I'll even put it together for you.

mercenary swine!!!

Once again, I'm posting without even reading the thread first, but I did see the word 'running'. Yeah I like that idea. I came to the site now because I saw that the start/finish time will be 12 midday. I think it might be better to start earlier, say 9am. This allows more use of normal waking hours at the beginning, and allows some sleep at the end, before driving home.

howabout doing the night stage on turbo trainers...no safety issues, no waterproof trouser debates and using the internet it would be possible to log mileage without even having to leave home, navigation might be a bit easier than usual though it would be dark to make it difficult to find the bike...im sure some cheating would go on, like running the turbo off the vacuum cleaner but hey...your only cheating yourself.

I haven't added anything to this debate yet so will chip in with a few off the top of my head thoughts.
1. The more options for mixing team members on different "disciplines", the more interesting the permutations and, probably, the wider the appeal?
Also, by building in rest periods by taking turns at the stages, probably broadens the appeal.
2. How about incuding one of the stages as a road based event rather than off-road. Reasons - less dependent on expensive lighting as even cheap (e.g. Smart light) sets are adequate for the road. Safer? Easier to arrange rescue from road than the side of a hill.
3. Foot based orienteeing section - I used to do some of these despite a damaged ankle which meant that I did them at a quick walk rather than a run and actually found that I was quicker than a lot of runners - i.e. slow but accurate. My lack of speed meant that I concentrated on good navigation.

OK I've now read the thread.

Offering a variety of team make-ups should be worthwhile as 'adventure racers' often work in teams of 3 or 4, so this event would become valid training for them. Pairs suits the current Polaris format, and solo the newest format.

It is true that having certain controls live at different times will help to control the event, and some controls could be reused at night (with different values even) as things look very different at night. The running ideas would work well in areas that are more intricate and dense, and would enable the use of different types of torches, which will help with battery power. In fact the choice could be left to the competitor whether they run or ride certain sections. They might like to take a bike lock then!

There is a greater risk for a solo rider to get into trouble after an incident (upon injury or hypothermia etc) but risk is merely an assessment based on severity of harm and likelihood of incident. Risk can be minimised by both the organiser/planner and the competitor making the best judgements possible - i.e. taking the effort to make an assessment in the first place. For example, not having controls live that are placed to utilise the most treacherous trails or roads at night. For the organiser/planner there is a greater obligation to provide safety/medical cover and to brief the competitors more thoroughly.

Each team or individual should have a whistle, emergency torch (LED OK) and a mobile phone, with the emergency number written into the phone book and taped to the phone.

You can't go wrong with this event format. I'm positive that it'll be a great success. There is no need to have a solo class for the first event. This could come through learning from the first. I would say a choice of 2, 3 or 4 team members would be good, with an interesting arrangement of choices for collecting controls that enables others to sleep for a while, but not too complicated to enable the devious to find loopholes in the rules.

I offered this event format to an organiser last year, and that I would plan the event, but the organiser did not follow it up (neither did I - I want to compete) so well done Polaris - See you there.

8hrs running is approximatley 2 marathons in time terms for the average runer. This is rather a lot if you don't normally run. It might be good for adventure racers and runners but both me and my normal Polaris partner would be unable to compete with a long running section. Whilst it might be advantagous to attract new competitors a long foot section would exclude a large number of keen Polaris regulars.

8 hrs running would be foolish. I think it should be between 0 and 4 hrs, and even that as a choice.

good points Gary well put thanks
we have no intention of introducing running as the Polaris is traditionally a bike event and there are plenty of adventure multi format events out there.
I favour breaking the event into 4 6 hour blocks which would naturally give rest periods.
Main problem is where to stage the event as English Nature has declared all upland moorland areas as SSSIs and are actively trying to stop mass events between March and July to protect nesting birds. So if we avoid this period and summer holidays and the shooting season August 12 to End December, jan/feb cos it's winter then that only leaves one weekend at the end of July.
This is a problem for events like the Polaris as we need big areas of country whereas TQ's can get by with smaller blocks.
Initial discusssions with the NYMNP were sympathetic.
I have my maps out here in Dubai and when Rog comes out in October we will thrash out the final details and get the entry form out

It's a pity you are ruling out a running option (where over night the competitors have the CHOICE of competing on foot) as this will certainly miss an opportunity to introduce new people to the delights of MTB-o. It would also rule out some Polaris regulars who are not so keen on off-road night riding (or very interested in night riding in parkland or on road).

That sounds very final on the no running then
Graham! I think you might be missing a trick in
not letting people mull that one over a bit
more. You might have found that it was a
popular idea.

Anyway, even though its now a moot point, in
response to Keith's point about 8 hours
running - *you don't have to run for 8 hours* -
you can walk for some of it (as many people
do in Polaris!) and you will then find that 8
hours isn't so bad. Also, in the case of a relay
(which is what I thought we were all talking
about), you could also come back and swap
over with someone else when you'd had
enough.

Gaz, why would 8 hours be 'foolish'?

And, going back to '8 hours = 2 marathons' for an average runner. This is quite wrong. In a navigational event over hilly trails this distance figure is much, much lower, particularly at night. It all depends on the type of trails chosen, and the navigational complexity.

Jon, I think that 8 hours is a large enough figure to put current Polaris participants off. That's why a smaller duration may be better, for the first event anyway.

If there was a choice of run or bike at certain times I can only imagine that this would attract more competitors (from AR and Fell Running etc.).

We are in the throws of putting together the format for the NAVITAC (24 hr POLARIS). so if you have any final comments to add please let us know in the next few days.

Shame that you've ruled out the idea of a run/bike type mix, as I think that would have perhaps broadened the appeal of the event (but then maybe there is enough interest anyway). One previous 24hr event I did was 2 x 12 hours duration, with a six hour break in the middle, which seemed to work well (this was on foot - maybe that's slightly easier than 12hours in the saddle). Whatever, good luck in putting the event together.

One thing I would like to add. Even though it seems that running is ruled out, in the event of a U-turn, please don't make it a compulsory activity. I would struggle to put together a team of bikers/runners who would be up for (allowed by their better halves) a weekend away. I doubt that i'm the only person keen on the event who is in the same boat.


P.S Will the bar be open for 24hrs? Come to think of it. What about the massage tent?

24 hours great idea.
But
please don't split it up into 3 or 4 bites
it'll be far more interesting to see how people break it up themselves.

Do you RAAM it (race Accross America) where many competitors go without sleep for 48hrs then 3 hours off and repeat for 8+ days!

Do you (as many have suggested), use your team to break it into 2-3hr bits (as le mans - and many RB / S in the S competitors did - doing 2-3 laps then break)

Do you travel as a foursome (making use of roads and slipstreaming during the day to bag the far points)

etc...

personaly we'll use....

Stephen Williams makes a good point. Not breaking the 24 hours up into portions puts more emphasis on tactics, and pacing yourself, than you might get if you had a compulsary return to base periodically.

However, splitting the time up would favour teams of two, who wouldn't be able to benefit from sharing the load among a larger team, particularly at night.

I would be more in favour of maybe a couple or three timed sections, with give outs at predetermined points across the event area at the beginning of a new period. This would enable you to go out on a bit of limb to collect a few high value checkpoints, visit a remote give out at the end of the period, then go on to another area without having to return to base. Returning to base would obviously still be an option for people that need sleep/beer/massage/new legs etc.

Is NYM is big enough to support a 24 hour event that isn't split into some time periods? The top level guys (which I am not) would mop up all the checks within the 24 hour period. Reissuing check point values is surely a necessity to maintain a challenge over the area.

As a final point, however PC decide to run this, it will be the hardest event on the calender next year by a mile, and for me probably the best event of all.

Of course with the wonders of Sport Ident you
can do all sorts of clever things - for example
you could have checkpoints that decrease (or
increase) in value as time passes.

Actually if you held it in Radnor Forest you could virtually eliminate roads of any sort. There's 5 hours of stuff in there without hitting tarmac.
It's also as safe as it gets, as if one gets lost you just go down hill till you hit the perimeter roads. It's also like a bloody maze in there
One thing nobody seems to have thought of [and perhaps James might have] is what the Nature Trusts and enviromental impact depts of FE are going to make of people whizzing round with 40 halogen watt equivalent lights arcing through the night sky. Perhaps we shouldn't tell them, oops too late James; still at least if it were in Radnor Forest you could kip in your own bed in your hours off.
Yes folks I've just finished my contract surveying 700 kilometres of largely non existant welsh ROW and am currently 'resting'

Jerry
Ta much BUT!
the James earlier in the message base is not me so he couldn`t kip in his own bed at radnor!!
Anyway in terms of EIs how about the rally stages day and night in Radnor forest? let alone this weeks "Hillrally" which seems to have been churning up various bridleways near Mixen?
so I`ll sleep easy in my bed now, especially as I personally would have no interest in doing a 24hr Polaris; I find night walking navigation challenging enough without trying to navigate at 5x that speed on a bike.

Having only just re-discovered Polaris since competing in the first five, I have found some of the comments on the forum interesting to say the least. It would appear the effects of the Nanny State are having a worrying effect on people... "it's not safe to be out on the hills at night" or you can't run for 8 hours because that's the same as 2 marathons" oh pleeeease!
Having personally competed in events like the South Downs Trial Running Challenge, I beg to differ, thats 80 miles of running (Yes 3 marathons back to back), it took me 17.5 hours and I finished at 4.30 in the morning. There were several hundred runners and only back up at check points 6-7 miles apart, no bike mounted support was allowed either!

In fact in the first Polaris Challenge in 1991, me and my partner finished dead last on the Saturday, 3.5 hours late (we were ambitious) in the pitch darkness, with one head torch between us.

The point is, on neither event was this a cause for concern as it was what contributed to the challenge. Perhaps these days too many people think that adventure is what you get from an X-box or a PS2, I certainly didn't think I would see that sort of attitude amongst Polaris competitors.

Now how about a 24 hour, solo event in mid winter (only joking...but then again it could be fun)!!!

When is the South Downs event you
mentioned - I might be interested as its fairly
local to me?

Jon B

Sorry, it was about 10 years ago when I ran the South Downs race and I stopped running soon afterwards (too many bike races getting in the way) so I'm a bit out of touch with the running scene. It was run every year at around mid-summers day but to be honest I don't even know if it is still organised.

It is still run, and I think it was won this year again by the Gurkha team. Take a look at http://www.oxfam.org.uk/trailwalker/intro.html for more info.

The World Trail running champs are run every year on the South Downs Way. 80 miles continuous. I ran it in 2 days in 198? There may be a link via an ultra runners website

two different races. the Gurkhas organise (and usually win) the 100km (60m) race which is usually the last wkend in june and is called TRAILWALKER. teams of 4. big entry, lots of walkers. it's a bit of a laugh, sore on the feet, fully supported every 10km by your own support crew, all on gravelly trails and very navigationally easy. A running team will do it in 10ish-14ish hrs. not as much fun (for most) as a mountain mara or polaris but good if you just want a long, long, relatively pleasant run.