Following JonB's idea of re-looking at the prizes has anyone any ideas?

yeah grumpy unsmiling people have them taken back.

How about this:

1 - outline the rules clearly and fairly on the
entry form
2 - don't leave ambiguities so glaring that a
child could spot them
3 - don't bull**** at the prize-giving
4 - give the prizes to those have rightfully won
them
5 - don't respond to any queries or criticism by
saying absolutely nothing/burying your heads
in the sand
6 - treat the people who pay the entry fees like
responsible adults, not annoying 'entry fodder'.
7 - re-read the previous thread re A&H and ask
yourself how you've got the gall to ask for
positive feedback amidst such appalling event
management
8 - implement numbers 1-7, then sit back and
watch that pig fly

As the majority of teams enter not for prizes but for the challenge of the event why not drop prizes altogether?
Not many teams stay for the prize giving anyway, including those who have won so we could all get off home earlier.
Just a radical thought but it has some merit.

I agree with DXB - does anyone seriously enter the event just because of the winner's prizes?
The vast majority enter for the fun/challenge/comradeship/scenery of it, so for them the winner's prizes are irrelevant.
Talking to the real challengers for the podium, my experience is that their interest is as for the above group, plus the competitive challenge, again not the prizes.
If you want to award prizes to make the event more appealing to all entrants, then make them all spot prizes.
Then just award some trophies/medals to the winners.
This works in running and road bike events,so why not the PC?

"Disappointed"`s comments sum it all up & need little embellishment except that it probably doesn`t matter until/unless Polaris sort out this mess.
I hope most people who know what`s happened would want to make sure as many others as possible are told & keep the pressure up.
The last time I felt this militant Winston Churchill was still alive,God no he was still PM!

I must admit to hugely enjoying the contributions to the other current thread regarding the mysterious prize allocation.

Reacting positively to Rog's request for ideas regarding an alternative prize strategy, I suggest the following: -

1) Award nominal trophies for winners of individual categories and the overall winner/winners (as suggested by Phil)

2) Recognise those who have taken part in a landmark number of events (say 20 or 25). A token momento might be nice - just to recognise the contribution that these enthuthiastic riders make to the overall atmosphere of the event.

I recall that there used to be an award for achieving 5,000 and 10,000 points. This award seems to have been abandoned...not sure why

I have a really radical suggestion.
Why don't Polaris actively publicise who wins whatever, be it two really good Fishers for the mens pair that came last this spring, and those prizes awarded on merit?
That way their sponsors might actually stay with them a bit longer.
I can't believe that it isn't possible to put out a press release after each event.
I thought this came under the heading of 'Taking care of business'.

Two Fishers? I wish I'd known, I wouldn't have
gone for any checkpoints!

This thread doesn't deserve a reply until the question answered on the thread regarding the mixed prize. Poor show Polaris

I have actively publicised the fact that we won the two Fishers during the Spring event. It was a real achievement to cock the event up that badly! Just in case anybody wasn't sure we didn't know of the existance of the prize until the prize giving. Sorry about that Jerry we didn't mean it! However, once I had suffered the embarassment I made sure we got the prizes.
Unfortunately my track record meant nobody wanted to team up with me for the Autumn!

Not your job to publicise it Pete {I too have come last].
I haven't seen a single press release.
Polaris seem to think it's good enough just to reward their sponsors with event banners leading up to the event.
Perhaps this explains why they don't hang on to them.

I don't remember them ever actively chasing publicity after the event, out of sight out of mind; which incidentally used to cover more than publicity.

Wait though Karen has just managed to insert a press release into MBUK! Apparently 150 teams did the autumn event [and the results were cocked up as well].

To be fair to Graham [again] he has mentioned recently that they have missed Andy's publicity expertise since he left.
As Andy has been the only one of the three to compete [he did so again this autumn] he perhaps also has had an insight otherwise slightly lacking.

Hi All,
I have competed in 7 or 8 Polaris since '98 and not once have I ever got close to winning a prise, nor will i ever. However this isn't why most of us enter them obviously, having survived each event it is nice to brag/describe the heroic tales of the weekend to all of those work mates etc. This is usually accompanied by wearing the T-shirt (when they are not in bright orange or green!)and showing the car sticker. So how about more of the same i.e badges or other clothing items, branded with event details which Polaris can sell to those that have no chance of winning anything.
My girlfriend eventually competed in her first (and it seems only!)Polaris last summer and was very disapointed at not getting something to take away that showed she had competed in, what was for her a very challenging event. I know the summer events are not as hard but some momento to show you were there would be a good idea, not only that they must make Polaris some profit and it's advertising too. After all you get a T-shirt when you go to just about any other sporting event/rock concert etc. just for spectating!

I think prizes are a good idea for the best competitors incidentally.

Thanks, Fishy Dave

DXB gets my vote ....
Drop the prizes and revert to the original spirit of surviving/enjoying the challenge.
use the money saved to reinstate the car stickers ... my old Escort was looking good with a rear window slowly disapperaing under them and I for 1 miss them. Include the sponsors name on them then they get advertising all year round all over the place not just on the weekend at the event.

I totally agree with the idea that everyone should get badges and T shirts. Most people haven't got a hope of getting into the prizes, but completion of the event in itself is an achievement.

All the long distance rides I've done over the last couple of years have offered a free T shirt.

Is is me or do Polaris appear to be losing their way? Just a few points noted:-

1. The disgrace over the mixed prize
2. The web site has gone seriously downhill - not accurate or updated regularly.
3. Lack of research into whether people were prepared for the extra cost and hassle of IOM.
4. PR - now non existent - they used to be in magazines all the time. Surely an article on IOM tied in with polaris would have been an easy sell to MBR - mind you if you never advertise they're not going to help.

Is there now a general lack of enthusiasm from the Polaris team? It would be such a shame if such an excellent event went downhill.

John
The event is not going downhill, we are committed to maintaining the quality of the event but we have been experiencing some unexpected problems with IOM and the Navitac.

1 Yes we did not handle the mixed prize very well, thanks for the reminder
2 Web site is in need of an overhaul, which we are on with
3 We did our research into IOM but FMD meant we had to cancel last year and that meant a date change.
4 We send out press releases to all magazines but the PC is old news and is difficult to gain the interest of editors.

There is no lack of enthusiasm from the Polaris team we are just facing a few unexpected problems at the moment that is taking a lot of time to sort out.

WRT prizes, we have never given away free T shirts but we should reinstate the car stickers. T shirts are never free there is always a cost and we have always taken the view that rather than give away a cheap T shirt that would soon become a duster we would sell quality shirts that people can wear. But if you all want Tees then we can easily stick the cost on the entry fee.

As for badges/certificates then there are arguments from both sides, those that want them and those that don't.

But as most of you do the event for the challenge and the craich then I still favour a reduction in the prizes and the issue of a small momento of the event to all successful finishers.

PLEASE NO T-SHIRTS. I agree with Graham
that free T-shirts are generally very low quality
and not really worth having. I suppose you
could have them for those who want them but
please don't be offended when I give mine
back.

I think random spot prizes are a good idea. It
is nice to win something if you don't generally.
Give beer to the winners. Its what they like.

It's a mystery to me why opposition to a night time event during the moorland bird nesting season from the nature conservation agencies should be a surprise to Polaris. I did mention it to Roger at the lake district, but I didn't think at the time that it had registered.
With the new powers in the CROW bill it could set a very nasty precedent.

For goodness sake Jerry - this is the prize
whinge thread - the general incompetence
whinge thread is over there ---->

I thank Dave Smitheram for not blaming his partner (old, fat me) for always winning diddly squat. Personally I blame Dave for too many picnic/ comfort breaks. But I'm Navitacking with him if the bird folk allow. Yes, bring back the stickers. I now have the appearance of being a top man at events but only because I'm still driving the same motor I drove to Kielder in Spring 96 so I'm still showing all those old stickers.

Brief moments of glory Mick, brief moments

Can I suggest that we stop slating the PC team. They do a bloody great job! This from someone who's only got into them (the events)last year. If you keep harranging these guys they'll just tell you where to stick it and walk off into the sunset. The amount of time and effort put into ensuring we enjoy these events must be immense.
(end of rant)
Keep the T-shirts good quality with imaginative designs(e.g.black mtns)and they're worth paying for, but please, no more v necks(autumn'02).
As for prizes, as someone who is v.competitive, unless they were huge, are meaningless. Better to have muddiest rider, biggest off, prettiest tent, loudest snorer, coldest, most lost or extremely mediocrest( if there is such a word...could you get it on a trophy?)

We'd stopped.

Actually I'd started again; but Roger has deleted the thread, so it was only up for a day.

When you pay money you have every right to give your views and criticism. Any forward thinking set up encourages it so they can improve.

The events are just as likely to stop due to dwindling numbers if customers aren't satisfied.

I wonder if any other postings have been removed?

When you set up their events for them [4] you have a right to criticize, but I must admit it does seem to make them a teensy weensy bit leery of ever employing one again; however as the pay is so low it doesn't matter.
I was asked to run next spring, but now I find Steve Willis is. He in turn thought he was running the autumn event until finding out by accident that someone else was.
As the years have gone by it has become harder and harder to deal with the ever increasing line of bottles one has to knock over.
The recent event problems were all too obvious months ago but many of us didn't raise the issues in the forum as it would have been as if we were 'dancing on the grave'.
Having said that Graham IoM will run a top event as his attention to detail, knowledge and commitment are second to none [as is his snoring].
Basically the events stand or fall on how good the subbies are.
Adrian Gidney and myself just give them the event and say that's it.

Hi Jerry
What are you on about?
You made it clear that you did not want to be involved with EE again but now you are put out because you are not doing the spring event, sour grapes comes to mind.
Steve Willis was never going to do the Autumn event due to his Karrimor committments. I met with Steve over Christmas and he knows what is going on.
You seem to be of the distorted opinion that only you can organise events but why is it only you that has problems with EE? Nothing to do with your attitude then.
BTW the problems with access for the Navitac was nothing to do with bad planning but with a sea change of opinion from the managers I was dealing with, I started these negotiations over 18 months ago and was given a green light for the event but as the whole of the moorland areas of the NYMNP has now become a SSSI this allowed lcal politics come into place. But of course you knew that didn't you (not)
Please do not speak for others local co-ordinators as they may not be of the same opinion as you. Please offer them the courtesy of letting them come on and comment for themselves.
If you want to do an event we have a slot in Spring 2005.

I didn't say that Graham. I said I was naffed off and that I was not contracted to do any events this year. I take it Roger didn't mention he'd asked me to do Spring 2004? Thought not.
I'm not going to go into who has had problems with EE, At least I haven't been whisker away from thumping Roger, rather the other way I would have thought!
As to events I've been to loads of good ones, I've been to loads of bad ones as well, and that's the problem, consistancy.

Mind you even the poorly planned events have been good fun, though fun is not a word that springs to mind with a couple of hours to go on sunday

lads...lads.....lads.
surely if you know each other so well, you could sort this out with a phone call. jeezus. i know its a forum, but handbags at dawn......a slanging match.........rog will be selling tickets as you scratch each others eyes out.

Excellent news that Steve Willis is organising an event - its sure to be good.

His trailquests are the best I go to. Very well planned and organised with a relaxed friendly atmosphere. He recently got over 200 for a 2 hour event.

Hi there Jerry. I'm doing your May TQ and your June randonee and I'm so glad you'll be putting on top notch events for me, but I'm a little concerned that your fliers failed to offer me the customary 5-mile tow homewards whilst my electrics dry out.

Oh I'm sure we can manage that Mick.
It would have made a wonderful photo, an old Sierra pulling an even older Landrover through the mud. I must say I was surprised as anyone that it did it.
I'm rather hoping it won't be damp enough for your electrics to play up

Jerry � as you like doing your washing in public I thought (on this occasion) I would join in but as the contributor above suggested for all the problems you seem to have with our event/company/people, now and in the past, why have you never picked the phone up or dropped me an email?

Yes I did mention to GL about Spring 2004 and none were more surprised than me when you contacted GL to say "you never wanted anything to do with me or the PC again� I have no idea why you pulled out but I respected your wishes and so found another event area and organiser.

I hope that sets the record straight - but I am still confused as to why you did not want to be involved???

As for the �thumping� issue - I have always found your events well planned albeit with a few shortcomings - but every event has its problems. If you are suggesting I have come close to thumping you then you are mistaken as I can assure you that you have never seen me loose my temper nor would I, as I see working together as paramount to the success of the event.

I seem to remember this same problem that you had when Andy was involved - something of a personality clash I think.

You have asked for consistency in the events, well for some people there is, but one of our themes has always been "to introduce people to a variety of differing mountain bike terrains� with this comes inconsistency as I have said all events have their problems and not all people like all areas or how we deal with each problem that arises.

At the end of the day we run the events to suit most people and I think we achieve that successfully but we are constantly trying to make improvements and shall keep trying doing so.

I hope your events are as successful as ours and continue to run for 12 or more years.

To all �

We introduced the Forum pages when the original website was setup, it is a great method of passing info around and getting news across etc. At the recent event in the Isle of Man I was approached by numerous (ex) contributors to the forum pages saying what crap people were posting and to that end they have not only stopped contributing but also did not read them either. My concern is not for those people, but for others who read the pages and are thinking of doing the event. I know of at least 2 people who have said they would not take part because the event sounded really poor quality and badly organised, they reached this conclusion through the threads on the forum. I can hear some of you saying "your bound to say that because you are loosing money". Yes that is true but my major concern it to see the event continues and in order for this to happen we need a constant supply of new competitors to replace those that do not take part any more.

So for the future I hope you can all use the forum sensibly, critism is fine but try to keep it constructive. I am sure this will provoke many responses but try to remember that many more people, than the ones that you are aiming your response at, will read the thread. If anyone wants to take issue with Me, Graham or Endurance Events personally please feel free to pick up the phone (0044 1246 240 218) or send an email � my email address is ALWAYS given in my postings.

Roger Dillon
Endurance Events Ltd

Absolutely fair comment!!

I can certainly recommend the summer events to everyone. They're great fun and a good taster before deciding if you'd like to carry a full pack and camp over on the spring and autumn events.

Many of the contributors to the forum seem to be the very serious competitors - I think one of the nice things about Polaris is the fact that all abilities take part and indeed it is vital that first timers are attracted.

I've noticed that the Keilder area regularly comes in for a knocking as useless - that may be the case for the full event - but for the less serious summer affair I think it would be great.

I notice that the summer Polaris always seems to fill up quickly unlike the others - is there any chance of doing other events that don't involve carrying full pack and camping over? Whilst I like mbiking I have no desire to be cold and wet, and a nice B&B is much preferable.

Look forward to the summer event.

The Kielder area is useless because it has
approx 1 km of singletrack and interminable
amounts of wide gravel forest tracks. It has
the least interesting riding of any venue that
Polaris has ever been to. In the summer there
are midges, which would make it even worse.

Jon
Once again you are correct the midges are horrendous but there are good areas adjacent to Keilder that have been brought into play in previous events. The Cheviots are a great riding area, certainly the event out of Clennel Hall was a good area.
However, as an organiser Kielder has one big advantage, no grouse and a helpful landowner who are committed to giving access to MTB riders.
Will we go back, well that depends.

Not wanting to re-start an argument, but mid-Wales would be a superb area for the Polaris (Summer please!) as there are endless b'ways.

And what about a handicapped system. Top riders have to carry additional weight...well just an idea!

Not wanting to start an argument. But. Why should people who train harder and show more commitment in all seasons be handicapped because of this? I'm definitely not a top rider, not even top 50% come to mention it, but i think it is impressive seeing these guys at full tilt. Due to natural lack of top level fitness, work, home, dog, child, wife, social life etc. i will never be a top rider but i imagine top riders also have these commitments yet they manage to train longer, harder and more often than most of us. Let those guys take the rewards they rightly deserve.

I remember over 10 years ago doing my first ever Polaris in Llanwtyd Wells - I came nowhere, but enjoyed it immensely. The sense of acheivement and the chance to ride with many others with a common interest in a new location was great - the prize didn't matter (the prospect of one was way off anyway).

Like Daz, I was impressed by the pace some of the top guys were going. But 10 years on I'm fitter, more experienced, can navigate better, have a lighter pack, better bike, I train harder and farther and so on and have made the top 10%. The propect of a prize is much closer than it was, but I'm still doing Polaris for the same reason as I was back then.

Does a prize really matter? Just to be able to say "Polaris?, yeah I won that once y'know..." is as cool as any prize I reckon, and if there is a medal to prove it then all the better.

I did that Polaris in Llanwrtyd Wells as my first ever too. I blew up spectacularly on the first day about 2 miles from the overnight camp swore I would never do it again. I then went on to have a blinding second day came close to the top of the P & Offs category and never looked back.

I have won prizes in the 4 polaris I did after that and damn good they have been too, but I have hardly ever been there to pick them up cos knowing that I had done well and survived is good enough if I won great, if not never mind. The polaris doesn't need big prizes it is the people and the challenge, although I like the idea of a medal or something similar for the winners.

Done about 6 Polari so far and never been placed before. I had a corker of an Alston Polaris, was majorly saddle sore during the second day (I STILL have scars!) and I was completely chuffed to bits to get my second place in the women's cat. It nearly killed me, and I'm still grinning at the fun I had(?). But I have to admit, after all that effort, I'd have been disappointed to just go home. My cycletop prize was much appreciated, and umm...sounds self-centred, but after my 10secs of 'fame' I was on cloud nine!

Don't scrap the prize giving, It's like umm 'closure'(?)to the event. To just go home when you've just competed as a billy-no-mates solo all weekend would be really disppointing (prize or no prize).
I think spot prizes are a good idea, might make more people stay to see if they've won something. I enjoyed the 'prizes for silly things' section. I think a lot of people did, no?
Don't scrap the top place prizes (I think they're well earned) but they don't have to be big prizes.