Call me an arse if you wish. But, i've noticed that the date for this event is noted as 21-22 March. Looking at next years calendar i suspect it should be 20-21 March. I have to book hols in at work very early to be guaranteed the required dates so is this definitely the weekend in question? Also, Northern England is muted as the area, is this also correct? I've missed Spring+Summer and am going to miss the Autumn event mainly due to work commitments therefore looking forward to Spring 04.

Date for next Spring event is 20/21 March 2004
Venue will be Yorkshire Dales National Park
See you there

looking to do summer 04 event as my first polaris
can you give me a hint as to roughly which area, entry fee, or advice. thanks

Probably Peak district
same as last year, look at entry forms
plenty of advice on the web site but you need to look for an experienced partner.

As planner of this event I would like to use a pre-marked map and want to know what you think. I will give my reasons below but please can you vote for one of these 3 options?
1 Copy your own controls and corrections onto a blank map at registration and get the control values at the give-out
2 Collect a pre-marked map at registration and get the control values at the give-out
3 Collect a description sheet with control values at registration where blank competition maps will be on display. Get your pre-marked map at the start.

I prefer option 3 and if you are interested here are my reasons.
You will not have to spend about an hour at registration copying the corrections from maps on the wall and plotting your control circles from grid references.
You will be able to relax and have a pint and a chat instead.
You won't be able to plan your route until you get the map at the start.
All the information will be on the map so you won't have to bring any special marker pens which don't work when your map is wet.
We will know that all competitors will have the controls marked in the right place as well as all of the out of bounds areas.
We will be able to mark any permissive routes as well as any bridleways which are particularly difficult to ride.
It works at most TCA events and at the KIMM and I think it is a step in the right direction but it is your event so please let me know.

Other threads
Some riders like to check out the local maps before the event. I live at Boroughbridge and the event is in the Yorrkshire Dales so I think you have a fairly good idea of which maps to check.

I was happy not to get the runs after the last event. The water didn't look particularly good but we boiled it without any puritabs/iodine and stuck to beer for our cold drinks. I have been competing in KIMM, SaundersMM, Capricorn events since 1979 and now the Polaris and Trailquests. I always drink out of streams without using any purifying tablets and haven't had any problems. It could be luck but I do check for dead sheep upstream!
I didn't do any water testing for the KIMM. I just picked 2 overnight camps where there were no buildings upstream of the farms. It will be the same in March - so start building up your antibodies now!!
Lightweight tents next! I competed solo on the Isle of Man but took a 2-man tent which went on a carrier over the back wheel. It didn't slow me down. Carrying a rucksack for the Polaris is a lot easier than the KIMM. Still on about weight I take plenty of food and a 2-season bag. I want a comfortable night and a lump of steak with my pot noodle! Lots of riders seem to be obsessed about the weight of their bikes as well. I ride a red one which weighs a ton and I couldn't tell you who makes all the different parts.

Option 1 please, or as a second choice option 2.

Has anyone considered maps premarked with OOB and permissive routes issued at registration? Checkpoints can be plotted by the competitor in the "comfort" of their tent. Checkpoint values are given out in the usual way after the start. Wouldn't that please everyone?

Whats wrong with being obsessed with the weight of your bike? I ride a silver one and it weighs bugger all :)

2 please.

IanB, I think option 2 covers your suggestion, i.e. the premarked map would include permissives, OOB, control locations, descriptions. In fact, everything except control values. Steve, can you confirm?

Paul
Option 1 is as it is now, ie you copy everything off the master maps.
Option 2 you get a pre-marked map with OOB's, event area, permissive routes and CP's ie everything except O/N camp and CP values
Option 3 same as 2 but with CP values, location of O/N camp and you get the maps at the start but you can study the event area maps at registration.

From the results of the questionnaire it was about a 50/50 split for pre-marked maps.

For me as an event planner I think option 3 gives more scope as we can use more controls and give out a different map each day. A3 maps will be easier to handle whether laminated or not.
This means that teams will have to plan on the move but there will be more CP's to hit so less crocodiles and follow my leader navigating. I don't accept the argument that teams will make more mistakes and use illegal tracks more, we will marshal these and mark them on the event maps.

We will still announce the OS map sheets before the event so you can study the event area in detail.

This year we are back in God's country, James Herriot country of the Eastern Yorkshire Dales last visited in Spring '93, I still have a copy of Gary Thompsett's article from MBR if anyone wanta a copy.

The area is brilliant loads of fantastic pubs(black sheep ale), cafes oh, and the trails are not bad too. So if your partner wants to know what you want for Xmas then it is an entry to the Polaris Challenge.

So, the only way to gain knowledge of the event area is to purchase an OS map before hand (incurring extra expense), or having to crowd around a load of blank maps at registration - like we do at the moment, you could say.

I think the issue of pre-marked maps was badly phased on your questionnaire (in retrospect) - it presented only two options, pre-marked or not. As we see from above, you have 3 options to choose from. If you had set out more clearly what pre-marked maps meant in more detail, you may have a different repsonse.

Asking for opinion here is all very well, but this forum only represents the views of a small sample of polaris entrants. What isn't helping your case is asking for feedback on a range of options, but then saying we'll probably end up with option 3 anyway.

You've gone for 10 odd years with entrants having to mark up their own maps, and given that 50% of the people are happy with this arrangement at the moment, why change?

I'd go for option 3, and also wouldn't be against NOT having a blank map available at registration.

It works fine for the KIMM.

Regarding Gary Thompsett's MBR article, I'd be interested to read it.

Option 2 please. This would give riders not familiar with the event area an opportunity to study the terrain and possible routes before the start without the hassle of having to mark up maps. The control values have always been issued after the start so this would be no different from the usual procedure.

Not too concerned about pre-marked or not, but if so then option 2.

At the end of the day, if its the same for everyone then whats the problem!

Option 3 would be ok as long as the map quality is the same, it sounds like a photocopy map in a plaggy bag job which would'nt be very 'polaris'.

Lloyd
let me have you email address and I will send you a copy

Option 2 please. We lost our questionnaire before we had a chance to fill it in at Alston.
I agree with Iain that a very small percentage of the entrants are represented here on the forums. Why not update the website and put the questionnaire there with the three above options or e-mail the questionare out using e-mail address from entry forms.
Neither me or my partner had bad stomachs after aston. The water used for cooking was boiled and for our drinking water we used steritabs and left for at least 20min

Option 2 please

Graham, my email address should now be displayed above. Ta

Graham,can you send me a copy of the for said artical from MBR. THANX
Paul.k.Allan

Option 2 please!

Pre-marked maps would be a big improvement, even if it is seen as a one-off trial. I have always been very vocal about the maps issue, so my arguements are as follows;

1. Living and working in the London area, the Friday drive to a PC start is something I dread. This can often be a 5 or 6 hour drive, turning up at 11pm. I'd rather meet and chat to other PC riders, rather than scrum around a map pinned to the wall for an hour or so.

2. An arguement exists that the map marking is part of the skill of the event. Yes, it takes skill, but it's a very basic skill, just dragged out for several very boring hours on a Friday night.

I'd prefer option two.

and a copy of the article please Graham as I remember Spring '93 very well, pants score but a nice ride (bit cold on Sunday though - even had the odd bit of sleet/snow if I recall).

Bike?... medium weight, black red and yellow and bouncy!

Please add me to the list to receive GT's MBR article. Thanks

Option 3 for me!
But why bother giving even these out? As far as I'm concerned why not just copy what they do on the KIMM score events? Less mucking around at Event HQ = more time for beer & pasta.

Option 2.

If you don't give out the details of which sites are active and what the different point values are before the start then it means that any route planning the night before is at best speculation. I can however multitask and can cope with marking maps up, sitting in a pub and drinking beer at the same time.

By it's very size and nature, there is going to be some follow the leader as with maybe 35-40 checkpoints and 500 teams then you will go the same way. This happens more often when you get slightly too obvious sequences, to stop this you as organiser need to make sure that there is not just one or two obvious routes through a series of checkpoints.

I realise this sounds a little negative but I am not trying to p##s on your chips, I think the idea of pre-marked maps will help to improve things for people new to the event. I just don't see it as the holy grail compared to good planning.

Chris

I dont think there is too much wrong with the present system-a pre marked map with checkpoints out-of bound etc, and then control values and camp location at the usual give-out would be great- save an hour on a very frantic friday night.Certainly would help folk new to the event!

did the KIMM this year and liked their system (option 3) menat that carefull and speddy route planning was all part of the event- also that terrible map marking on the friday night was eliminated- good quality maps (like the kimm) would be key

ooops also ment to say did this year Isle of mann and it was excellent- great biking, good atmosphere lots of friendly people about- looking foward to next years yorkshire dales adventure (especially as will be on 'honeymoon')

OK Decision made.
We will produce A2 event maps pre-marked with controls, out of bound and permissive trails, They will be available as plain or laminated as normal and will be given out at registration. There will be one master map on the wall for any last minute errata/changes.
Daily Checkpoint scores will be given out after the start as normal together with the location of O/N camp on the Saturday.
We will also advise the OS sheet numbers on the final detail sheet but will NOT post the CP's on the internet before the event.

Excellent news, I'll have to get my entry in then!

I wonder if Santa will bring me the new bike, tent, sleeping bag, stove etc I asked for???

I doubt it, so if it's the usual.....lets just hope they're cycling socks!

Excellent, thats the right choice. I'll get our entry off as soon as the bank balance has recovered from Christmas.

Let's just hope the maps provided are over-printed pukka OS maps, and not the usual "full colour photocopies" much loved by the TCA. These latter maps are usually sufficiently poor either to lose all the blue lines (streams and grid lines) or the brown ones (contour lines). I've never yet seen an adequate photocopied map, certainly nothing approaching the clarity of a "real" OS map. So there!

Mick I've got alot of old trailquest maps that proves your above post completely wrong. I've done loads of trailquests and have only come across craply printed maps on a handful of occasions. What's more, I've never had a bad map at a Steve Willis (EBOR) event.

And just to chuck a point in

Could the maps be based on the New HARVEY'S maps of the dales,

the ones that colour code all cycle routes.
i believe the one for the Eastern area almost reaches borobridge, I know it covers harrogate where I am.

mind EBOR trailquests are always good as i'll get to spend friday night in my own bed , roll on March

No the maps will be based upon OS digital maps, The carography and printing will be done by the same team who do the Ebor series maps.

Well Heather I base my comments on TCA maps INCLUDING I have to say one from me old mate Steve Willis - I took another look at his (EBOR) October 2001 National Champs Weekend map a few minutes ago, just to be sure....and altho it's just about adequate, it aint a patch on a proper OS map - and if you read this Steve I still love you! And just so Steve doesn't feel "picked on" I have a collection of other colour photocopied OS maps used at TCA events which were not as good as Steve's. All I'm asking is that the Polaris crew take a real careful look at an original OS map and it's colour photocopied cousin and ask if they can tell Stork from butter (showin my age there...)

GrahamL,have you found your artical yet (GT's MBR)
'Cause,i a'nt seen it yet!Have i missed it?

Graham I think option 2 is a great idea certainly worth a try. I agree with Duncan that it leaves more time on the Friday night to chat with other riders and have a beer or two.

PS enjoyed the Autumn Polaris.Had no problems with the water. Looking forward to 2004.

As someone in the know, "you ain't seen nothing yet". And as for those that keep on refering to the old style maps used for EBOR events, it's time you did an event in 2004.

Hi Graham,
Can I just confirm the status of the maps, as it is not clear from the entry form. Are you going with option 2 (A2 map provided with all controls and OOBs - laminate option) and active controls given out at the start? Or is it mark your own as usual when you have registered?

bs
Option 2, see previous thread 21/12/03.
Maps available plain or laminated.
We will not be giving out NGR's so you will have to buy a map.
Start and give out as normal.
Only marking up will be O/N camp and any last minute changes that have occurred after printing.
Collect maps at registration with description sheet. I have seen them and they look great.
Therefore we will not be putting controls on the internet. (waitng for moans already)

oh please graham can we have the controls on the 'net,if not what map will we need,is there a pub nearby?

PFG
we will advise the applicable OS maps with final details.
It is the Yorkshire Dales, Herriot Country, Theakstons and Black Sheep Country, there are loads of pubs, cafes around.
You can have a 2 day pub crawl if you want.
should I produce a separate pre-marked map just for you with pubs marked instead of controls.
Or would a Polaris Pub Guide be of interest?

I have that black sheep tackle,dam fine stuff,can't see me riding far with several of that stuff in side me.
Polaris pub guide!what a great idea,go for it grahaml!

I'll put my mind to it then.
So after the start in ? it is up the dale to stop first at the Kings Head then.............where's me map?
I need to do some research.
PFG, BTW, you have to drink the black sheep you know.

Graham

Would it be worth making it clear on entry form/website front page that every one will NEED to buy a map as indicated in your recent post (07/02/04)... it's not very clear.

to add my two pence worth, i would prefer option one... i have collected over the years laminated maps for most of the wilderness areas, and it seems silly to increase the number of the same maps for the sake of not having to do a marking up session in the pub on friday (which i kinda like!)

(also, summer events which return to the same general location year after year, the pre-marked otpion would seemingly mean buying a new maps every year.. surely a waste of perfectly good tress/time/effort??)

sorry... the more i think about this, the more it is irritating me... in the past it was a good way to buy a laminate map of a mountain biking area, and then wash it down after the event, and bingo, another area of the country covered.

now, seemingly, the controls will be under the laminate, and obscure parts of the map permanently..

take the north york moors for example... i used the same maps for certainly 2 if not 3 events...

i love polaris events, always have an excellent time (even if my legs say otherwise) but this seems to change part of the challenge of the event, and i would think twice about entering..

Graham,

Please could you send me Gary's article from MBR. My old team mate Paul Lingham won it with him that event and I want to forward it on to him. Hopefully I can persuade him to enter again.

Thanks, Dave Faulkner.

Rob
The more time I spend organising these events the more irrated I become.
We have changed to pre-marked maps to satisfy the pressure from people wanting them, not every one likes to mark up maps on the Friday.
But it would appear that the old adage still prevails you can only please some of the people some of the time.

Graham

No offence mean't. Slightly too rant-like and ill-considered on my part. (Maybe I'm just stuck in the Mud?)

I take you point that you can't please everyone, and would note that I have always experienced excellent organisation at Polaris events.

Rob

GRRRRRRRRRR - Change!!!!

None of us like it, but if this means more participants and helps to ensure the continuation of the event....

The cheese is on the move.

Ian and Dave
I sent you both a copy of the article, hope you got it OK

I'm not surprised that Graham gets irritated. The overall perception I've had from this site for some time, is its time for change and the majority seemed in favour of not marking up.

I have been guilty of a few whinges in the past particularly about customer care, but I can see how frustrating pleasing the customers can be.

Graham,

Thanks for the Dales article - t'was a good read.

Small point about the pre-marked maps - the questionnaire revealed that only 48% were in favour of pre-marked maps. If I've done my maths correctly, this doesn't represent a majority ;)

Looking forward to the next event all the same.
Must get that entry form sent off....

Graham, thanx for the artical, not read it yet but will get round to it.
Now about this polaris in Yorkshire how near to GODs country will we be? cause if it's just down the Road i'll just saddle up and see you there?

Well, it's been a long time since I visited this forum, or the Dales. Time to return meethinks. Entry is in. Well done Steve Willis and Graham for introducing a change to the mapping. I'm positive that the feedback will be good. See you soon. Gary

Welcome back Gary, lets hope you are as successful as last time in 93
See you next week

This Sunday 14th. 10am at Annandale Water M74 Motorway Services. This will be the start of a Polaris MTB training ride, ending at about 5pm and prob using roads to connect the Forest of Ae trails with the Mabie Forest trails - a big day! Keith Byrne and Gary T meeting up. Anyone else?
Info and map on www.7stanes.gov.uk