In response to the speculation of England V Turkey being the reason numbers are down this event, why are numbers down?

As a long standing Polaris competitor I look forward to twice yearly jaunts to the middle of nowhere. The only events I have missed recently was the isle of man. This was due to not being able to commit to the date far enough in advance due to a project at work.

There seems to be a shift in popularity towards endurance and trailquest type events at the moment. The Kona 100, sleepless events and trailbreaks all being good examples. Why is Polaris not capitalising on this newfound popularity?

The main answer I believe is convenience. People want to be able to decide last minute about whether to do an event. Then turn up in their cars on the start day, do the event and leave in time for sunday dinner with the family. I blame mobile phones personally, they seem to have removed peoples ability to organise themselves.

What is this "England V Turkey" is it that football thing?

Personally a football game would be last thing to keep from anything.

However I must say that having decided to join the fray after a break of exactly ten years, I had forgotten the sheer level of organisation that a Polaris can take, and this time I don't have to kick my partner into shape too, as I'm going solo.

OK so I did have to organise a fair bit of new kit and decide exactly which box in the loft my stove was in etc but I can see how it can put off the Polaris virgins.

Mind you I can't see a 24 hour race being any less difficult but at least with a team of 4 or 5 you are likely to get one keen person organising and the rest turning up for the hell of it, certainly that seems to be the experience of my mates who have raced the Red Bull (sorry - Saab Saloman Mountain Mayhem) or sleepless in the saddle.

Anyway I made the effort, see you all next weekend!

IMO, it is the cost/fun ratio. The entry fee to the PC has always been a hot debate topic. No matter how it is dressed up, it is expensive when you add a couple of maps and now dibbers. That's before the petrol, food, kit etc. Better value for money on other events.

That said.....I've really enjoyed the PC events I've done. I've never been a finance man, but surely there is a way to reduce costs? How about remving those Exodus holidays from the prizes and looking at channelling the money into the event. Only a few select people seem to win the holidays, time and time again. Does Andy Heading really go riding on his Exodus trip?

How about saving money by not posting out any entry forms to previous contestants but just doing it by website - or has that been done already?!!!!!
Seriously folks, it should be possible -and cheaper- to email everyone entry forms to email back - hence acting as a prod to those who need reminding.
I suspect that the special edition map issue and out of date website info didnt help this year. Its a shame 'cos its a great area, just watch out for those slippery cobbled streets in Alston!
How about getting some editorial coverage in some of the, dare I say, "mainstream" mtb mags - no offence Singletrack- but that might be the way to reach the younger audience!

Duncan, I think you might be confusing me
with my younger, faster (cheeky sod) brother -
although, as far as I recall, he only won one
foreign Polaris trip before they were scrapped.

Also, I heard at the Summer PC that prizes
from now on will be targetted at younger riders
- Parent & Offspring category for example -
which has got to be a good idea for the future
of Polaris & TQ-type events. Too many of us
old gits already...

Duncan
We do not pay for the Exodus holidays, they were part of the sponsorship deal with Exodus.
Andy
Interestingly enough the majority of our entries come from posted entry forms. Why email entry forms out when anyone with an email address usually has access to the net and can download an entry form. We can only promote the event it is not in our control if the mags do not cover it, we have issued press releases and invited journos to enter FOC but maybe we are old news.
It is now 12 years since the first PC and we are probably the longest running MTB event, perhaps the event is just running out of people who want to do it.

Why on earth anyone would want to ride around a park for 24hours and not test themselves against their own choice of routes is lost on me.
Since I started prganising MTB events in '86 it has laways been said that it is expensive to enter a MTB event, well the bottom line it is expensive to stage one, there is little to no sponsorship for cycling events in the UK so the cost has to be passed on to the competitor, We are not making a massive amount on the event, both Roger and I cannot retire and still have full time jobs. It is a myth that there is a killing to be made organising MTB events.
If there is some financially switched on person who can advise to the contrary then bet in touch.
Yes, I accept that the entry fee is not the biggest part of the cost, getting there, B&B, equipment, food and DRINK ( for a lot of you) are significant costs to be accounted for when entering the PC.
Over the years we have continued to develope the PC, new areas have to be researched, new scoring methods have to be paid for, increased costs of toilets, skips, food, car parking fields have to be met. The event has to make a profit or else it will not survive.
After this event we will have to evaluate the future, at the moment we are facing a realtime loss of many thousands of pounds that we cannot absorb, most of this resulting from FMD, we cannot make a loss as it comes out of our disposable income but what to do?
Put up entry fees and accept a reduced entry field but a quality event.
Drop one event from the calendat, perhaps 3 events a year are too many.
Sell the event, anyone interested?
Pack it all in and play golf.
Who knows but we will not let it go without serious consideration of all options.

But we have a great event to look forward to so let's hope the weather improves.

Mmmm, whilst I knew the event was a phenominal piece of organisation, I wasn't aware that things were run so close to the breadline. Whilst I am sure you have considered plenty of these ideas previously, off the top of my head here are a few things which may or may not increase attendance.

Remove the secrecy surrounding the event area. Allowing people to plan in advance that they want to do the event. Also allowing a bit of local hype to build up (leaflets in local bike shops etc). Perhaps this will encourage local entries?

Keep an event report archive on the web site. It is easier to get excited about an event if you can see what it is like. The event seems to be shrouded by mystery and tough guy status. When it is the most enjoyable mtb event I have ever done.

Generate recommended kit lists for polaris virgins..... I started doing the event with borrowed / cheap kit. It might have been heavy but so what, I enjoyed the events. Perhaps a Budget,Ideal and Dream kit list?
It may encorage a few more sponsors if their kit is recommended a lot (tough one I know).

Diversify your market. Try sending info out to road clubs. A lot of roadies mountain bike as well. They always love an excuse to buy lots of interesting new kit.

Add a charity element? Perhaps a major charity is interested in people doing the event for sponsorship? They all like to do it for trips accross africa etc... why not closer to home?

Also, "let's hope the weather improves." Not bloomin likely. We seem to do better when the weather is nasty. Nothing like being blown uphill by gale force winds to put a smile on your face.

KIMM numbers are down this year too, five years ago when I started doing them the reserve list for all cats was long and many did not get in. This year there's either no reserve list or only 3 or so teams on it.

The rise in Adventure Racing (in the last couple of months there's been lots of long, energy draining ones) must have taken folks away from both Polaris and the KIMM.

Maybe you just need to accept that numbers are unlikely to reach the consistently high fields of a few years ago and budget accordingly.

Targetting young people is good but I wonder how effective it is. It's already been mentioned that Polaris (and KIMM and the LAMM...) are relatively expensive events to compete in and a car is a very useful thing to have to get to them, lightweight kit is very nice to use for them, a nice bike with full suspension and disc brakes...
Get an article in MBR or MBUK showing how cool the Polaris is and see the entries flood in (maybe). Maybe you should get rid of the pictures of hairy blokes on bikes and replace them with blonde birds on bikes!!! I'm sure that will make you some new friends albeit at the expense of lots of new disgruntled folks!

I reckon that the current enthusiasm for 24hr events will recede slightly in the next few years, why don't you try and nip in on that lull when people want different challenges? I think a 24hr navigation event would be great - sort out the venue though first eh!!

I think in the recent past maybe EE were guilty of being a bit reticent and assuming that people were always going to do the events, I don't want to bring up old sticking points here but you have to treat people right and always have good courses. I loved the Lakes and IOM events and, although the riding of the North York Moors was great, I don't really think the course layout was up to your usual high standards.

I'm really looking forward to the weekend, the one thing that I'm not looking forward to is marking my map out on Friday night when I want to go to bed. With a bit of forward thinking you could have mailed the maps out to us, put the checkpoints on the internet and had quite alot of happier punters!

I'm going to stop moaning now, see you all on Friday!

Andy - OK, should have checked my facts, but lets just rephrase my comments to 'The same few people win the main categories, so prizes are irrelevant to 95% of the field'

I agree with the sentiments above. Event reports and a more comprehensive picture gallery would help sell the Polaris over the web. Every PC event I've done I've seen photographs being snapped all over the place, but only 2 or 3 ever make the website.

Feedback and customer satisfaction are the buzz words in industry and customer facing business at the moment. How about a feedback questionaire to fill in on Saturday night on the event? Chance to win a t-shirt etc for filling in the form.

Talking with other competitors, one of the major bug bears is the map marking on a Friday night. If you live in the South, after battling with the M25/M40/M6/M1 for 6 hours after a day at work, the very last thing you need is map marking. I'd pay extra for a marked map, if it meant more time in my sleeping bag.

Don't get me wrong, the PC is one of my favourite events, I want to see it keep going, and I've nothing against Roger et al making some money out of it.

Good luck to everyone at the weekend.

Just while we are on the "Doom & Gloom� note... We have just been advised of the new premium for insuring the event, it has increased by a factor of 3 times, and it was expensive before!!.

I have spoken to other event organisers and they too (if they bother with insurance) are finding the same problem.
I spoke to the people at BOF (British orienteering Fed) if they, cannot find reasonable insurance cover, will remove insurance from all events and this maybe their demise.

In one of the threads above it was mentioned that the PC was expensive, I am afraid to say, it now looks very "cheap" when comparing it to the costs.

As GL said if anyone has any good ideas we are always happy to listen.

Just to add to this thread of "Falling number", why are we now taking more hits on the website - year on year. The hit rate has quadrupled?

Interesting comments from everyone above and there are lots of useful suggestions.

Roger - you say that most of your entries are on posted forms? I can well believe this. We still send our entries in by post (even though I know when the event is from checking the web site regularly) because the forms require a signature. I'd be more than happy to send the PDF form back on the e-mail and credit an on-line account with the entry fee rather than have to fill out a paper form, send to my partner and for him to then send the form back to you (this costs 2 postage stamps) With on-line payment, this would speed things up and prevent the costs of the forms being sent out in the post. You could then e-mail a confirmation. I am sure most of the other Polaris regulars would prefer this also - would this help save some costs?

I also agree that the glutton of long-distance 24 hour events and enduros will wain - I've lost interest in these. I did the first MTB marathon in 2000 (the Schwinn which has now become the middle Kona of the three) and I've done this twice. I'm not sure I would continue to do these though given that the courses are almost the same and the costs (�25 for a days ride I think is steep). There will always be people who prefer to do these (those who don't like reading maps)but I think that some of these people will get bored of these over the next few years and the Polaris will come back into its own. I do think though that the Polaris needs a good PR exercise carrying out on it - a few glossy pictures, some media coverage by some of the newspapers (probably not local papers) and some regular sponsors who can really promote the event (I'm thinking here big companies such as Lowe and Karrimor but they already do their events in the UK) How about Berghaus for clothing or one or two of the big MTB firms? A couple of years back you had an event sponsored by SIS but in my view, they are too small a company for this task.

I really do hope that the Polaris continues as it really is fantastic and the amount of effort that goes into organising one must be collosal. I am sure you will have the support of many of the regulars if costs do creep up and I hope that the suggestions and ideas keep coming in, hopefully some of which you may find useful.

See you Friday
Phil

PS - I'd go along with Heather's suggestion too of some glossy flyers with some young ladies (and blokes on too) minus the beards and moustaches - no offence Aiden and Alan!!

Oh...one other note, weather forecast is for situation to improve towards the weekend with sunny intervals on Friday and Saturday and very little wind, but it could be chilly on the Saturday night!

glosssy pics of chicks,sounds good to me!
don't forget England kick off 6pm

This will be my fifth Polaris (4th Autumn!) and I will continue to do them when I can but ... I'm planning on entering the British Adventure Racing Champs Qualifying events next year which will take alot more time (and alot more money!). If you want to whinge abut cost think about �100+ per event... I only started adventure racing this year but have caught the bug, i've only done a couple of 'lightweight' events but the idea of a weekend of orienteering based events including mountain biking but also kayaking, climbing and running is attractive to me. I guess things (or people) move on and seek new challenges. I love the Polaris as an event but I've done just about as well I expect I will ever do and want to try something else while I still can.

As for this one - bring it on! The weather is starting to look brillig [sic] if not a touch on chilly side - check out BBC online and look up the five day forecast for Alston its listed beleive it or not.

I'll be the guy with the oak-smoked bacon on Sunday morning...mmmmmmmmmmmmmm BACON

I have similar reasons for not doing either Polaris or KIMM this year. And I'm a serial participant - 13 KIMMS!

Weekend 11/12 October - Polaris

Weekend 18/19 October - ACE Race

Weekend 25/26 October - KIMM

Too many endurance events in late autumn

My body tells me that it would like to do all of these but it is worried that it might let me down.

ACE Race is part of 4 race series, so it wins.

To quote Jon Brooke of 3 years ago "Play Station"

Firstly, I agree with all of davef's comments,it doesn't seem much is actively done to attract newcomers.

With regard to rogers comment that web hits have quadrupled:-

Many people like myself access the site regularly - so how many different users are actually on-line?

If so many people are on the site, it should start to deliver. It seems constantly out of date and just too fancy - keep it simple have all the facts correct and sell the sport. Lots of pictures of past events would also be good.

With regard to insurance - save yourself some money and make polaris cheaper - don't have any. What exactly is insured anyway?

If you need to ensure numbers are high and you make a profit how about 2 events summer style - it attracts far more mixed and girl teams and always seems to be full?

Lastly, without doubt, the vast majority of views with regard to maps are please have them premarked - isn't it about time the customers were listened to?

Pre marked maps???? I think this is getting a bit lazy. It really doesn't take long for one person to read the grid and description and the other to mark it. Marking the permissives and out of bounds can take a while, but at least it gets into your head where they are. I'll admit that after my long drive from Exeter, getting to Alston at 11.30 marking up a map then putting up the tent is taxing, but marking up the map is really not that big a factor. If people want to pay more for this service fine, but I dont.

This was my 5th event and I really enjoyed it. If you want more competitors why not try marketing to the orienteering set? Get a celeb to participate and some mainstream media coverage? If you want to reduce costs drop the wilfs food. Could even charge another tenner per team.

jill - "Simplify the website"... and "add lots of pictures?" Actually that tends to do the opposite but I get your meaning.

I must admit that I thought I had read all the site but only yesterday discovered the "a few tips" section, which I could have learnt a few things from after my 10 years away from Polaris.

So what kept me away for so long? Apart from obvious ones like getting married (although my wife has done 2 PCs with me in the past) and pressure of work I suppose it was largely the need to find a willing partner. The ability to ride solo is what got me back in and I notice the numbers (and winners!) are growing.

Andy - As to pre-marked maps, I didn't mind it this year as it was indoors in a well lit hall with plenty of space. In the past I would always mark up the out of bounds and permissive tracks and then retreat to the pub/b&b to mark up the control points at my leisure. This year I, like many others I spoke to, preferred to do it at the school as it was that much better than the half lit, drafty marquees we have suffered in the past.

On the subject of cost, I was amused to see the crowd listening to the England/Turkey game on the car radio. I presume these are the people who will willingly spend �30 for 90 minutes "entertainment" each weekend?

Personally the cost is not such a great factor when you consider the additional costs over the entry, for me:

Petrol �70
B&B �16
Food on journey/Friday night �20
Food/drink/gas/puritabs etc for event �20?

So the entry is only 28% of my total outlay although this didn't include the numerous items of new kit I purchased as this will be used again (and hopefully on other PC's) or the two days of annual leave I took (one to travel and one to recover)!!!

I'll certainly be back, see you in the Spring

One way to promote the event is surely for all those that enjoy it to tell all there mates how good it is and get them to give it a go - it is usually easier to tempt people to the summer event first and get them hooked. I have done just that and have been partially successful.

Equally, point them to the web site but not to this forum. If you were to judge the event from the forum you would expect to find a load of people whinging about everything and arguing the pros and cons of waterproof trousers!

I understand the problems with keeping web sites or similar up to date but it is frustrating when they are way out of date. Full marks for the results out the day after the event though!

Regarding photographs, have a look at the Welsh Mountain Biking Web site (http://mtb-wales.com/index.php and follow the link on the left to event pictures) and look for information on the Breacon Beast, a 100K event I did in September. There are photographs of pretty well all the 400 or so riders who took part - food for thought but like everything else it needs someones time and effort - usually in short supply in these busy times.

Personally, my enthusiasm for the event has not dwindled at all after about 6 years of taking part.

yes, I accept all of the comments about keeping the web site up to date but it is really a time thing and we probably have to re-write the site again.
I have no idea how to update it so I probably need to get my 11 year old to teach me then I could share the work load with Roger.
But hey, a lot of you have cameras so let us have your pictures, we are usually static at starts finishes which are not exciting photos, so send in your photos, we will sort out a prize for the best ones and those with a story to tell write it down and send it too us.
Thanks to all who filled in the questionnaire, I will compile the results when I get back from Dubai and let you know. We will probably try and put one on line.

Roger
Just an idea for insurance cover...why not form a British Cycle Federation Club and run Polaris as a club event under their blanket insurance cover. There would be a requirement for all entrants toe be Polaris Club members...It will probably make you the biggest BCF club in the UK too!
Si

I think the reason the Kona 100/Red Bull etc are so much more popular than Polaris is that the PC is damn hard work. Not only do you have to ride much further than in the other events, you have to do it on two days, carry loads of kit on your back, you have to navigate and think as well as race, then when you're knackered and need a good night's rest and a hot bath all you have is skimpy lightweight kit and bloody smash and powerbar gels for dinner, then it's freezing cold and you don't sleep, and all your cycling kit is not only covered in mud but also practically frozen cos you had to leave it outside to stop your flimsy down sleeping bag from getting wet cos a tiny bit of moisture on it makes it even colder than it already is, and you have to squeeze your way into a tiny tent and climb over your knackered mate who's fallen asleep already half way through his packet of jelly babies so you have to go through the horror of moving his inside out cycling shorts from your side of the tent.. and then when you finally manage to get organised in a desperate rush on the Sunday you find yourself faced with a massive 1:3 climb to get to some crappy 10 point checkpoint before the sun's even risen in the sheltered valley which seems to have been specially chosen to be the coldest place in the uk and your bike won't even work cos it's plastered in mud etc etc

There's definitely a very different clientele at Polaris to any of the other big name enduro events...

B

Ben, Thats just a great description of a polaris event. Still laughing now!
Yes it is hard but I get a great feeling of achievment just completing the 2 days.( this feeling doesn't arrive till at least a week later! )

Ben

You forgot...

Buying a can of beer against your better judgment, then knocking it over into your too small tent and having to spend the night sleeping in what smells like a slops tray!

or

Inflating your sleeping mat (brought along as a concession to luxury) only to find after five minutes that it is totally incapable of retaining air. I know I should have tested it beforehand but it worked fine at the last Polaris I did (OK so that was Autumn 1993), I really SHOULD have tested it!!!

or

losing a strip of puritabs when packing up in the morning and then wondering why your helmet is uncomfortable!

I think I'm going to take the easy option and go and do a 24 hour!

re insurence
You could do what what several enduro organisers have done for years and run the event on BCF'fun'ins 40p per prson per day. Almost without exception they have then posted timed and positioned race results which have invalidated both that ins and any riders personal accident insurence.
This year someone shoved a stick in the wheels by contacting BCF's insurers directly, who got heavy. All credit to Parkers as they could have continued to take the money and then not payed out. Whether not being a race gets one into fun ins I don't know, and I wasn't involved with telling Parkers, I was told after the event, well before the event but after the email!
Anyway have you tried that one Roger?
That's what we use for the 'Roughride'
As to popularity
When Polaris first started we were still riding rigids and racing was the game. Polaris was the only alternative. Now people delight in nadging about on full sus and racing has dropped through the floor. Polaris is up against 'Enduros', though they aren't that technically speaking. I've just done the Newnham as I'm working down here for a while, and though the course was great and the organisation superb, it was a walk in the park compared to Polaris
Has anyone noticed how lardy the average joe is, these days?

I live near Dartmoor in Devon which means an awfully long journey to participate in most of the Polaris events. Having discovered the total joy and bliss of the Welsh bike trails I and my biking pals have opted for a weekend in a self-catering cottage near to Afan Argoed instead of doing the PC.

However, we did make the effort for the last PC and had a fantastic time. We will definately be up for the Spring event as it is much nearer to home.

Many, Many thanks to the organisers for a great event.