Firstly I must say I'm totally in favour of the pre-printed maps, none of the worry of arriving early to mark things up in the crowded event centre.

That said I didn't think the quality of the printing was great. It was difficult to separate footpaths and bridleways, and the colour of both was too near that of the contour lines. Also the yellow colour of the roads was none too clear, all much clearer on the original OS Maps.

Finally the merits of marking soft ground most be questionned. I didn't get to try any of these routes, but I'd thought the track over the top to Apedale on this basis should have been marked as such. It resembled the Somme when I was there a few weeks ago, most of the damage from motor bikes and off road vehicles.

I will confess to mistaking the "soft ground" symbol for byways at times! Yes the colours were a bit "muddy" and I also found the laminating to be much more shiny than the Autumn. Then I could use a highlighter to mark routes but this time it just wiped off and I was reluctant to use an OHP pen as these obscure too much detail.

Also now knowing that many of the checkpoints were never intended to be used (50-60?) why were they there? They certainly confused me at times having so many "dead" checkpoints on the map.

On a positive note the pre-marking WAS an improvement.

I am in favour of PMM, for us, after a 7 hour drive from Swindon to Leyburn, the last thing on my mind was marking up a map at 10pm in the evening. It certainly saved us a lot of time. I hope you'll do the same for the next event.

Downside of PPM is that being able to plot 6 figure grid references under a bit of pressure (¬ screw up - like I've done in the past!) is all part of the team-building, route planning part of the event, which would be a shame to lose. Also, please work out how to get bridleways/byways printed in red. Put the checks in a different colour?

Upside - I travel from Colchester, so it does give me more time to plan my route Friday evening (or socialise in the pub, which is also important)

If the event area is on just a single OS map then the checks can be posted on the web earlier that week. If people who live locally then want to go out before the event to check the routes then I feel sorry for them, they're only cheating themselves! It's supposed to be fun!

If the event area runs across several OS maps then this is trickier to dish out CPs early, but probably a good thing as it gives a different viewpoint of an area, so I guess PPMs are the way to go in that instance.

Main thing is to avoid disadvantaging those poor Northern Souls who happen to live in the South East and don't have local knowledge of the areas and have to travel a long way to each event...(get the violins going!)

Loved the PPM's - but I hope all the day 1 controls next time aren't going to be numbers 1 - 25 as we'll be able to partially plan our route the night before. Perhaps the control sheet handed out after the start should have had the 6 fig. ref's - I could have located checkpoints for marking in the points much more quickly. One competitor asked us where overnight was, just to check - it's a good thing they had PPM's.

Keep the PMMs ,they're great ( as tony the tiger says). Don't post the CPs during the week before, They don't do it for other events do they? The colour similarity of rights of way and contours was a bit tricky but we managed OK.

Dave, there's a lot to be said for your method of using a highligter on the bridleways before applying fablon to create your own 'laminated' map. It certainly helped separate the apparent similarity in color of the PRoW's and the contours. I'll be trying that next time ;)

PMM's were OK in general, and I agree with most of the above (dispite being in general opposition to them before). 50 CP's allow lots of scope for the planners, which can only be a good thing.

Yes, I was a bit disappointed with the colour separation on the PMM's.
Apparently the OS mapping CD's do not allow prints to be taken off at A2 size so we had to scan them in and then the printing operation lost the definition.
Next time we will highlight all of the legal ROW's if we use this method.
The jury is out on the number of CP's, we do not want the PC to become a 2 day trailquest, we want it to have an expedition feel to it.
If we stick with PMM's then we will definitely not put the controls on the web.
At Registration there was mixed feelings re PMM's. My opinion is that it does take something away from the event and perhaps dumbs it down a bit giving this information on a plate but I can see the advantage of receiving PMM's after a long drive.
What next? Memorymap 3D routes downloaded straight into you bike computer/PDA.
Why not just stay at home and do it virtually on line? Just a thought.

Graham

Now there's a thought, navigation software on the PDA, then I could get it to give spoken instructions just like in a car. I can hear it now, a softly spoken, strangely accented female voice...

"turn right on bridleway in 50 metres"

Of course there would be a need for adapted software for events like Spring 04, so you got the thing to bellow over the wind!

"OI CAN YOU HEAR ME, I SAID TURN LEFT, NO LEFT! WHY ARE RIDING OFF IN THE WRONG DIRECTION? ANYONE WOULD THINK IT WAS WINDY!"

No I can't see it myself either!

Nowt wrong with the sexy voice!BUT CAN YOU REALLY SEE A FEMALE GUIDING AROUND THE COUNTRY SIDE,THEY FIND IT HARD ENOUGH TO FIND THERE WAY ROUND THE GARDEN ON A NICE SUMMERS DAY!!
There that should do it!!

well,far be it from me to say "I told you so" but when PMM's were first mooted I was a lone voice saying the colour reproduction experienced with Trailquest versions was poor. All I got was criticism and a "whinger" label and a promise that things had moved on this last few years. Having said all that, after 22 Polaris events the novelty of marking up on Friday nights was beginning to wear a little thin, so, despite a few drawbacks, I'm still throwing my hat in with the PMM lobby. As for OHP marker pens rubbing off, that's nothing to do with Steve's laminating - it's simply that the ink doesn't seem to "set" when marked up in damp conditions - this has always been so.

I found the PMMs much less hassle on the Friday night, it's not exactly rocket science to mark up the map from GRs, but it is very time consuming. The bridleways/footpaths etc. weren't easily visible against the contours, though if all the maps are the same then everyone is in the same boat. I'm not too sure about marking the "soft" bridleways with the crossed red line, as Lloyd says, this did tend to make them look like byways and is an unnesessary complication. I'm also in favour of not posting the CPs on the net before hand, why bother? Everyone discovers where the CPs are at the same time so it's fair. Overall the PMMs were, in my opinion, an improvement so please try them again. 60 CPs? why not, it was different. If anyone finds my map BTW, it was last seen heading in an easterly direction from CP6 and
thanks also to the chap who lent me a paper map, at the Red Lion in some unknown village, so at least I could find my way back.

I have a suggestion for steve,(or who ever) how's about doing a T/Q of some sort using the southern half of the map, or a mixture of the whole map,just so we can ride that area in good calmer climes.
I did a T/Q from Grinton last year, but some of those routes look well awesome Dude!

Next time, would it be possible to use different colours for the markings on the maps? All the red made things a bit unclear at times, especially when footpaths and bridleways were brown!

What about making these maps Anti-blow away buggers!
Seriously don't ya think we could end up with TOO many diff colours on the maps!

Right - here's an idea that I need some feedback on asap!
MAPS - what do you think of us sending you your map with final details IF (and only IF)you have entered by a pre-arranged date (probably a month before the event so the maps can be ordered in time for delivery). This means we get more early entries (much better for office logistics!) and you lot get a map that you can pre-mark when the list of controls gets put up on the wednesday before the event and all the people who like to use GPS can download. Anyone entering after the cut off date will have their maps given to them at registration. We have to have a cut off date or we'll have a nightmare with map ordering. The only marking up on the day will be out of bound areas, start, give out and any special map alterations.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I will be printing the entry form next week so please be quick. sensible answers only please!

Karen,
Yes that sounds like a good idea that should keep everyone happy. It worked well for the Isle of Mann, so why not try it again?
Would the checkpoint details actually be posted out, or would they just be available on the internet? Not everyone has access to the web.

Tom
We would post them on the web 3 days before the event, if we posted them 2 weeks before it gives too much time for pre-riding etc.
Our survey said ( I sound like a game show host) that everyone who completed it had access to the web and if this was well known then most will be able to get the info off the site some how.

Karen's idea sounds good to me. I wasn't (prior to Leyburn) in favour of pre-marked maps, but maybe they weren't so bad after all - despite the color. PMM's were a lot less hassle at registration, but I felt that they were ultimately a bit anti-GPS (not that I used one for the last 3 events I've done). One thing I did miss was being able to study the map at length prior to the event - only having a few hours on Friday to do it - I think this is the biggest trade-off for PMM's. Posting them out with the event details would be so handy, particularly for those with a large distance to drive to the event.

To be honest, I think that PMM are are better idea, certainly most people I talked at the recent event were heavily in favour of them.

Distributing maps two weeks before the event would enable people to ride the area. No doubt that happens now, but people are guessing the area covered. It would be obvious if you had the map.

So let me get this right,we get the maps 2weeks before the event,then on the wednesday before the event you post the CP's and descriptions so we can down load and put the imfor on the maps at our
own liesure!!
If so would the map be sent out rolled or flat packed?

What if someone misses the cut off point? They would be at a real dissadvantage to the "organised" people who have the map early. A couple of evenings of route planning compared to marking the maps up on the friday, after a long drive, could make a big difference. Would the extra postage charges be passed on?

Sounds like a great idea Karen :o)

Extra postage charges? come on we're not about a fortune.
IMHO PPM maps ought to be included, with the cost added to the entry fee, rather than separated out.

From memory that's the practice in the KIMM, where maps are pre-marked and only handed out at give out.

OK answers to the above,
- The maps would be sent out folded.
- No the postage costs would not be passed on
- If you are late in entering then you would be at a disadvantage but we would still try to send out maps until the last minute, this is an attempt to get teams to commit early.
- yes it would allow people to pre-ride the area
- The KIMM is different and we did consider the option of giving the maps out at give out.
- yes I agree that the maps should be included in the price, but which map, laminated or paper. The majority order paper but I know that a lot of you like to laminate your own after marking them up( and you cetainly manage to leave a lot of mess around for me to clear up) Perhaps it should be one paper map per rider.

The maps would be sent out to people who enter before the cut off as an incentive to enter early, anyone entering after the cut off date will enter early next time once they see the advantage! The maps will be sent out with final details as this is when we advertise the final area, so people have the same advantage as before if you already owned that map! We are trying to get people to go back to entering early so our last week is not spent on the phone to late entry people - it is an office nightmare as we have to rush everything through and try and guess how many maps to order etc etc. We had a lot of feedback saying the marking of the maps is part of the event but time consuming - this method helps both sides.
This idea was suggested by a competitor (thanx Heather) and as a rider and organisor I think it works for both sides.

If we are going down this route can we have the out of bounds information kept to an absolute minimum to reduce the amount of scrum on friday night. Otherwise it seems to be an excellent idea.

Why not just set a cut off date for entries and take the entry list off the website this might encourage people to enter early.

Please keep it exactly as it was at Leyburn. It was excellent. We had an relaxed drive up (until we hit the traffic on the A1) as we didn't have to worry about the time to mark up 2 maps.
The way it was for Leyburn was fair and simpleand if you high lighted the usable rights of way and useful roads the colour definition wasn't a problem. Keep it simple, keep making good tough challenging events

I could be wrong here Dave but I think EE found the pre-printed maps for Leyburn to be too expensive. It's hard to please all of the people, I should imagine Graham et al are tearing what hair they have out in frustration, some people want to keep map marking as it always has been, some want a completely pre-marked map (but some of these will complain about the quality - I didn't find diffentiating trails and contours on the map to be too much hassle) and some want to do it themselves a day or so in advance and thus avoid a rush on the Friday.

I think the final details get sent out about a week before the event, enough time for someone with the map to go and ride all the possible trails in advance. Mind you, we all knew it was the Yorkshire Dales (and there were enough hints about it being in the eastern dales) months in advance and so could have spent all of our riding time sussing out these trails, if we REALLY wanted to.

I personally think the winners would keep on beating those who spent all their time reccying anyway.

Sending out maps to people with the final details and posting the checkpoints (on the Wednesday evening say) just before the event would save those people who like to highlight their maps AND get a reasonable nights' sleep more time, get a few more people to enter earlier and keep those luddites ;o) who don't want to sleep much on Friday night happy.

In response to Keith Wilbraham's comment on out of bounds tracks and areas... For the Isle of Man event, clear descriptions including grid references were given on the internet in advance (along with the checkpoints) enabling us to mark them up on our maps before the event. Could this be done again?

That sounds perfect Tom. Its not the map marking I object to its the friday night scrum.

I'd be in favour of sending out the maps with the final details and posting grid references on the Wednesday. The PMMs are a good idea but I thought the colour quality was poor which made some of the tracks hard to distinguish. Presumably the unPMM's would have the same high quality colour definition that the usual event maps have?

To answer Graham's question about including paper or laminated maps in the entry, why not include paper but give the option of paying slightly more to have it laminated?

I have worked out why I could easily highlight my map at Alston but found the Leyburn map too shiny (and it wasn't the weather as I did it friday night, giving it plenty of time to dry). On closer inspection, the Alston map was matt finish on the front but shiny on the back, the Leyburn map was shiny on the front but matt on the back!

Yes Tony your right just checked my Alston map and that would make sense,can't check my Leyburn map as it blow away on the moors!Shame ehh!!

On all previous maps the laminating has been done by Chartech who produce the Aquamaps.
The laminating material is matt and allows pensils to be used.
In future we will be using Chartech again.
The colour definition can be improved on PMM's if we use OS as the supplier but there is a significant lead in time.
Thanks for the good positive points so far.
Oh BTW Heather, nice article on Singletrack, when do I get my kiss?

Heather & Karen's plan is great - Please can we go with it.

I like to mark my own map as part of the familiarisation process.

I always go the library 2 weeks before hand to borrow the appropriate maps of the area anyway, so the timing would fit perfectly.

I like to laminate the map myself, so this lets me do it on a big flat table at home!

I am always a late entrant, but with an incentive like this I would become an early entrant.

I like it!!!!

my mate julian always likes to laminate his own map - this way he ends up with bubbles and ripples representing hills and ridges (though not necessarily where the hills and ridges actually are) - and even david blunkett could find his way round!